Penn and Teller

[Pappy13]

Whenever I've seen P&T do a reveal, they follow it up with another better trick that they don't reveal.

Yeah, that's an effective technique to really mess with your audience's head.

If you watch the full episode of Fool Us (it's on Youtube), they actually do take pains to avoid giving away the secret.  They use a lot of jargon ("we believe that you 'rang in the cooler'") and at one point, Teller draws a diagram of how he thinks the trick worked and shows it to the performer, who accepts that he did not fool them.

FYI, there is a magician (with the American Society of Magicians) on staff with the show, who apparently has had the trick explained and acts as the "judge" of whether or not P&T were really fooled.

Ok, that makes sense, I guess they were just fooled. Heck maybe I was too, but I still think I nailed it.

[Pappy13]

They did a trick with a cell phone and a fish that I defy you to explain.  Its on youtube.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eRw69htzQnU

FF to 4:35 for the trick.

edit to add - I see how it was done, after some clever youtube searching...

Well now that you have seen it, I can tell you I pretty much knew how they did it. I looked it up on youtube, but the video I saw only showed Penn palming the phone and it being put into the fish offstage, it didn't show how Teller gets the fish into the box, but I'm pretty sure I know that too. I used to do a trick where a coin from someone that was marked with a black felt tip pen ended up inside a matchbox that was wrapped with rubber bands which was inside a bigger wooden box that was also wrapped with rubber bands. The hardest part of the trick was palming the coin which really isn't that hard.

[Dave Gray]

I saw that fish trick live, in Vegas.  I think that there might be a trapdoor under the guy's seat.

[Pappy13]

I saw that fish trick live, in Vegas.  I think that there might be a trapdoor under the guy's seat.

Nah, it's much easier than that. Almost all magic tricks are easy once you know how they do it. The "trick" is making you believe the phone is in that fish all along. Most likely the phone never is really "in" that fish until the very end and it only really appears to be "in" the fish because of the way that Teller cuts open the fish and fishes out the phone (pardon the pun).  It's slight of hand and misdirection.

Here's a quick rundown of the things I noticed during the trick.

1) Teller goes into the audience to find someone with a cellphone. He's looking for a particular type of phone - - something like a smartphone. That's important because Penn is going to palm the phone, but convince you he still has it. Look at the way he holds the phone when he's taking her picture, covering the majority of the phone with his hand.

2) They go through a lot of trouble to make you believe Penn tosses the phone to Teller who catches it in the bucket and raises it up to the roof. That all just adds to the illusion for the audience. It's misdirection. If you believe the phone is in that bucket, you're mistaken.

3) They actually call the phone 3 different times. I suspect there's a reason for that. The first time they have it called is to find out what the phone actually sounds like when it rings so they can duplicate it. I suspect the phone you hear the 2nd ring is not her phone and it's not in the fish and it's not in the box.

4) Another bit of misdirection happens just after they open the box with the fish in it. Penn and the owner of the phone are at the front of the stage and Teller is taking the fish around to the back of the stage to put it on the table to cut it open, he's pretty much obscured from sight for just a second. There's a reason for that. They want you looking at Penn and the woman, not at Teller where the "fishy" stuff is happening.  After that he cuts open the fish to reveal the phone. I suspect the phone was never really "in" that fish until that very moment.

That's just my opinion, I could be wrong.

[Dave Gray]

I know how they get the phone off the stage, into the fish, and into the box.  What I don't understand is how the guy pulls the box from under his seat and brings it to the stage.  Unless they are switching the "dummy" box under his seat with the "real" box containing the fish, once it's at the stage.  I think I remember them very clearly keeping the box in sight the whole time.

[Pappy13]

I know how they get the phone off the stage, into the fish, and into the box.  What I don't understand is how the guy pulls the box from under his seat and brings it to the stage.  Unless they are switching the "dummy" box under his seat with the "real" box containing the fish, once it's at the stage.  I think I remember them very clearly keeping the box in sight the whole time.

How do you know how they got the phone off stage, into the fish and into the box? Did you see the video that I saw showing what the phone recorded? If you did, the video I saw only shows a guy appearing to put a phone into a fish. I don't think that's exactly what happens, I think that's what P&T want you to think happens because that still doesn't explain how they get the fish and the box out into the audience. That's more misdirection. That's more P&T revealing the trick without revealing the trick. The phone is never in that fish until Teller puts it in there while cutting open the fish.

You ever see someone cut open a lemon or something and find a dollar bill or something inside it? You honestly believe the dollar is in the lemon prior to cutting it open?  As far as I know they don't grow lemons with dollars inside them. That's slight of hand to make you think the dollar bill is in the lemon when they cut it open. Same thing with the fish. It's very convincing, but it's not real.

Again, that's just my opinion, I'm no master magician, I could be wrong.

[Pappy13]

3) They actually call the phone 3 different times. I suspect there's a reason for that. The first time they have it called is to find out what the phone actually sounds like when it rings so they can duplicate it. I suspect the phone you hear the 2nd ring is not her phone and it's not in the fish and it's not in the box.

Actually I take that back, the phone you hear that 2nd time is probably not her phone and it's not in the fish, but it may be hidden within the box. I was thinking that it could be hidden underneath the seat, but that could be found by a nosy busybody like me, better to actually hide it within the box because no one is gonna be able to inspect the box once it's back on stage and there's no way for you to tell the difference between the phone being in the fish or just being within the box.

[Dave Gray]

Because I saw it.  Between watching the video online and watching the show live, you can see.

They palm her phone early.  Then, they throw a false phone into the bucket that goes above the stage.  Then, they put the real phone in a pocket behind the Cris Angel cutout on stage.  When it is taken off stage, a stagehand takes the phone, puts it in a plastic sleeve, cuts open a fish, and seals it in the box.

I know that FOR SURE.  I watched it.

The only thing that you can't tell (because the phone is sealed in the box, is how the box gets under the seat.  (Assuming it's the same box.)  But, if I recall, Penn handles the box very clearly and gingerly at the reveal part, never attempting any sleight of hand or misdirection.  By that time, the work of the trick is over.

[Pappy13]

Because I saw it.  Between watching the video online and watching the show live, you can see.

They palm her phone early.  Then, they throw a false phone into the bucket that goes above the stage.  Then, they put the real phone in a pocket behind the Cris Angel cutout on stage.  When it is taken off stage, a stagehand takes the phone, puts it in a plastic sleeve, cuts open a fish, and seals it in the box.

I know that FOR SURE.  I watched it.

I have no doubt that's what you watched, it's essentially the same thing I saw and I believe all of that, right up till they cut open the fish, put the phone in and seal it in the box offstage. That part is a misdirection to thrown you off track. Let me ask you this, who made that video? Someone associated with the show I'm assuming, it pretty much would have had to have been. You think P&T may have known about this video? Perhaps even approved of making it? Why would they do that, aren't they giving away the trick? No, they aren't, because they haven't given away the MOST important part of the trick, how do they get the box and the fish into the audience. THAT is the trick. The video is to fool you into believing the phone is in the fish which is inside the box. I don't buy it. It's more misdirection. It's more P&T doing their thing only with a cell phone camera and a video of "behind the scenes with P&T".

The only thing that you can't tell (because the phone is sealed in the box, is how the box gets under the seat.  (Assuming it's the same box.)  But, if I recall, Penn handles the box very clearly and gingerly at the reveal part, never attempting any sleight of hand or misdirection.  By that time, the work of the trick is over.

That IS the trick. This is simply how P&T operate. Show you the trick, then show you how the trick is done without really showing you how the trick is done so that you're still left scratching your head. The reveal part of the trick convinces you that the phone is in the fish inside the box, put there by stage hands off stage, but that's not how they do the trick because that doesn't explain how the box gets into the audience. In magic, the simplest solution is usually the correct one, which is that they DON'T get the phone into the fish inside the box out in the audience. The phone gets into the fish AFTER they take it out of the box after taking it out of the audience and most likely it's put there by Teller as he's cutting open the fish. He's just very good at making it seem like the phone has been there the whole time. That's called slight of hand. It's not easy, but if done right it's surprisingly effective.

And I'm going back to my original thought that P&T are in on the tricks with this show. The whole notion of bringing in a "official" magician who knows how the trick is performed so that he can reveal whether or not P&T really were fooled, the part about using magician jargon so they can say how it's done without saying how it's done...it's all staged. It's ALL part the trick. The whole show is one big magic trick with P&T being the master magicians and the other magicians playing their part in the trick. It's genius. I'm convinced of it.

That's just my opinion, I could be wrong.

[Pappy13]

One last comment. When the magician shows you the top hat and says "Here I have an empty top hat" and then proceeds to pull a rabbit out of the hat, was the magician lieing when he said it was empty?

What's the difference between that and P&T telling you that the show is real. They're magicians. Their job is getting you to believe something that's not real. That's the trick. That's what this show is. A big magic trick.

I'm not trying to bring the show down, I LOVE it. I think it's genius.

[Dave Gray]

Penn and Teller announce that they are recording from the girl's phone.  It's part of the act.  They even tell you that you can go on YouTube and see how the trick is done, from the people who've uploaded the trick from their phones.  There are many versions of this same trick on youtube, just like I saw it. 

I think you're way off hat a switch happens and the phone is never in the fish.  The phone is most definitely inside the fish.  They have the girl take it out herself and, like I said, there's not any slight of hand going on.

I don't think that there's a question that there's a box, with a fish inside it, with the girl's phone inside it.  That exists.  They don't make an effort to misdirect at that point.


Just curious, have you actually seen the trick, or have you only seen the cell-phone camera portion of the trick?

[Pappy13]

Penn and Teller announce that they are recording from the girl's phone.  It's part of the act.  They even tell you that you can go on YouTube and see how the trick is done, from the people who've uploaded the trick from their phones.

That's a dead giveaway there Dave. They want you to watch the youtube video and see how they get the phone and they want you to believe they put the phone in the fish offstage and then put it in the box and sealed it up offstage. That way you're totally amazed that that box ends up in the audience and has been there since the beginning of the show. That leaves you scratching your head. They haven't shown you anything. They've shown you EXACTLY what they wanted to show you. That's what magicians do. Trust me Dave, that's the TRICK. Making you believe something that's not true, that they put the phone in the fish off stage and then sealed it up in the box.

I think you're way off hat a switch happens and the phone is never in the fish. The phone is most definitely inside the fish.  They have the girl take it out herself and, like I said, there's not any slight of hand going on. I don't think that there's a question that there's a box, with a fish inside it, with the girl's phone inside it.  That exists.  They don't make an effort to misdirect at that point.

That's the reason for the video. They don't want you to believe that they put the phone in the fish right there at the end. That's the deception. The video helps with the deception. You don't believe there's any misdirection going on because you believe you've already seen the phone going into the fish backstage and the fish going into the box. Well I'll tell you Dave that most magic RELIES on the fact that you don't believe there's any misdirection going on. The magician convinces you of something that's simply not true because you don't believe he could do it right in front of you without seeing it. That's called slight of hand and it's the oldest form of magic known. Teller is a MASTER. Teller is the magician. Penn is nothing but an engaging guy. Why do you think it is that Penn does all the talking and Teller doesn't say a word? It's so that when Teller is doing something sneaky you aren't looking at him, you're listening to Penn talking. That's called patter. Magicians rely on it. It's extremely effective in keeping you looking in the wrong direction when they want to conceal something. Now don't get me wrong, Penn is a great magician in his own right, I'm just saying that most of the time when they need to do something they don't want you to see, it's Teller doing it while Penn is distracting you.

Just curious, have you actually seen the trick, or have you only seen the cell-phone camera portion of the trick?

I've only seen the trick performed in the link that Brien provided. I've also seen the video on youtube that supposedly explains how the trick is performed. It shows the video that was actually taken with the phone which just shows Penn palming the phone and the phone ending up back stage and then shows someone putting a phone inside a fish. There's no way to tell whether or not the phone that's being put into the fish is in fact the phone that the trick was performed with. There's also no way of knowing what happens to that fish. For all I know that phone isn't even the person's phone, it's merely a prop and that fish may end up in the trash, there's no way of knowing if that's the fish that Teller then cuts open to reveal a phone.

Let me ask you this, which is easier to believe? That there's a trap door under the floor of every theatre where this trick has been preformed and that they're able to get to it from off stage after putting the phone in a fish and sealing it in a box and then they are able to switch that box with a box that looks just like it right in front of about 6 people while the trick is being performed....or that Teller simply does a little slight of hand and makes you believe the phone comes out of the fish?

But, I can tell Dave that I'm not going to convince you. That's ok. That just proves how good P&T are at what they do. Even when someone tries to tell you that you are being deceived you won't believe them. That's a tribute to P&T.

[Dave Gray]

I don't think we're on the same page.  I'm not really amazed by the trick.  I'm amazed at the simplicity of it, maybe.  The trick essentially comes down to the one move: the switching of the phones on the stage.

Once that happens, there's nothing else magical.

Why is the trapdoor under the seat such a crazy idea?  It's a custom built theater for magic.  I'm assuming that there is space under the stage.  I've seen them use that for other tricks in other shows.

I understand how P and T work.  They do slight of hand the whole show, in different ways, but this just isn't one of those cases.  They also talk about it, as well as how their magic works -- that they're tricking you.  In this trick, though, after the box comes back, it's not them handling the stuff, I don't think.  The girl is the one who takes the cell phone out of the fish....not Penn or Teller.

[Dave Gray]

I just watched this again on youtube, from the Fool Us show.  It's a different version of the trick than I saw, but only slightly.

It's all the same, except for the end, the box isn't on someone's seat.  It's underneath a guy's seat.

[Pappy13]

I don't think we're on the same page.  I'm not really amazed by the trick.  I'm amazed at the simplicity of it, maybe.  The trick essentially comes down to the one move: the switching of the phones on the stage.

Once that happens, there's nothing else magical.

I see. The fact that the phone ends up in a fish inside a sealed box thats been sitting in plain sight of several people in the audience for the duration of the show is just window dressing? That's the trick. That's what makes the trick "magical". The fact that Penn can palm a phone and replace it with a look alike is a pretty simple thing. Any average magician can do that.

Why is the trapdoor under the seat such a crazy idea?  It's a custom built theater for magic.  I'm assuming that there is space under the stage.  I've seen them use that for other tricks in other shows.

So any time P&T wish to perform this trick they have to use that theatre? That's not exactly a great way to setup a trick. Even if they could get to the floor under the box, they'd still have to remove the box from the seat and replace it with another one that looks just like it without letting any of the audience members that are sitting right next to it see them do it. That's some pretty nifty work right there and its not done by Penn or Teller who are on stage at the time, it's done by a stage hand.

I understand how P and T work.  They do slight of hand the whole show, in different ways, but this just isn't one of those cases.  They also talk about it, as well as how their magic works -- that they're tricking you.  In this trick, though, after the box comes back, it's not them handling the stuff, I don't think.  The girl is the one who takes the cell phone out of the fish....not Penn or Teller.

In the video that Brien linked, Teller kinda pushes the phone up from the bowels of the fish so that the woman can grab the top of the phone. All that is required is that there's a slit in the side of the fish that's wide enough for the top of the phone to be slipped into. Once Teller cuts open the fish, he pushes the phone completely through that slit in the side of the fish and out the gaping hole he just cut which makes it appear to be pushed up from inside the fish, but it never really was inside the fish except for that EXACT moment when he pushed it into the fish from that slit in the side of the fish. Prior to that moment Teller has to hide the phone and the slit in the fish from view of the audience and the camera. If you have ever cut a flap in a fish with a nice sharp knife and then layed the skin back down, it's barely noticeable. The skin almost seals itself, much like your own skin when you slice it open with a sharp knife. That's where the slight of hand comes in. In one quick motion, Teller puts the phone into that slit and pushes it up through the fish. He's probably practiced a few hundred times so that he's able to do it quickly and without anyone seeing him do it. It looks completely natural, like the phone is being pushed out from deep inside the fish, but it's merely an illusion.

I'm just telling you how I would do it. I've done tricks like this before. Obviously not this elaborate as I'm not nearly the magician that P&T are, but I understand how tricks like this work. A little slight of hand goes a long way towards performing a lot of tricks. Can you honestly tell me that there's no way that this would work?