After cooling down: A lack of hope

[dolfan13]

i think the real question is what positions different regimes value more than others.

obviously the one running the dolphins values linemen more than than the skill positions. others would have that flipped around. so yes franchise tackles are valuable but more valuable than franchise qb's or receivers?

i will say that getting the skill positions right, hides poor decisions in other areas significantly better than the other way around. simply because of the fact that in today's nfl, putting up big points is a necessity to win. linemen on both sides of the ball don't necessarily translate into points on the board.

[MyGodWearsAHoodie]

linemen on both sides of the ball don't necessarily translate into points on the board.

They matter.  Brady had more time to throw the football the Henne.  That is part of the reason NE won.  Not the only reason, but a contributing factor. 

[dolfan13]

didn't say that they don't matter... just what is the value relative to qb, recievers, other skill positions in today's nfl.

i heard on the radio the other day they did one of those sports science shows with plaxico. guy ran a route to within inches, blindfolded.

the game for the offense has become one of exact precision. qb and receivers that are that in tune with routes are basically impossible to defend.

[MyGodWearsAHoodie]

i heard on the radio the other day they did one of those sports science shows with plaxico. guy ran a route to within inches, blindfolded.

But that begs the follow up question....is that unique.  Is plaxico the only wr that can do that?  is that something only the best ten or twenty WR?  is that something that is expected of every WR and if you can't do it you don't make it to the final 53 your rookie season?

My point being FF has resulted in an overemphasis on "skill players" particularly RB and WRs. Yes, a QB is generally considered the most important player on the team.  The left tackle is considered the second.  RB and WR are not more important than the line.  If a QB has enough time the WR will get open.  If the QB doesn't he will be sacked.  Madden had it right, games are won and lost in the trenches.  Give the RB a hole he will get thru it.  No hole and he gets tackled for a loss. 

[jtex316]

@Brian Fein,

I watched every single snap of the Dolphins game. I even altered when I was going to do my homework and go out running to watch this game. Every single snap.

Chad Henne regressed in game 2, period. He had, what, 5 passes knocked down or tipped at the line of scrimmage? Several others under thrown or overthrown? Henne was off the mark a lot in Week 2. He also needs to work on his mixing up his cadence - he could not draw the defense offsides during that 4th and 1 from deep in their zone - may have been possible if he mixes up his snap counts and uses inflection in his voice (those are free 5 yards that the defense is giving the offense...on that note when was the last time Chad Henne drew a defense off-sides? Again, a skill he just does not posses).

[dolfan13]

the game evolves over time, not over night... there certainly are innovators in changing the game.

the trend at all levels of football, is spread the field. what is the time to throw down to now, 3 seconds and the ball is out? precision routes and timing is where this thing is headed.

15 years ago precision was 10 yards and in, now it is down to inches blindfolded. 15 years ago corners could mug receivers and qb's actually got hit. isn't the case in today's nfl... hell i'll say 3-4 defense is an evolution predicated on the passing game. you can't really call it "nickel" corner anymore. its freaking 3rd cornerback because they practically play all downs now.

3,000 yards passing in a season used to be a remarkable feat. that is nothing in today's nfl.

look at the rex ryan defense. it's not a conventional in the trenches, de pass rushing defense. it's predicated on all different types of blitz schemes. fast and athletic is the new nfl, not plodding and big.

[Pappy13]

You're reaching.

Maybe with Long. The rest you didn't even bother to refute.

Either you don't believe it's possible for a left tackle to be a franchise player, or you are undervaluing Long because of the Dolphins' record.

Maybe a bit of both. He's also played hurt a good bit now which has hindred him some. He's done great protecting the QB's backside, but the Dolphins have not had a whole lot of success running behind him. Not all of that can be blamed on him, but still I don't think he's been as productive as a franchise left tackle should be.

He's arguably the best LT in the league, has made the Pro Bowl every year he's been in the league, and was first-team All-Pro last year.

He might be the best one in the NFL right now, but that doesn't necessarily make him a franchise player.

He's been better at his job (at this point in his career) than Zach or JT were at the same point.

I disagree. He's gotten more recognition at this point in his career, but that's because Long came with a higher pedigree than Zach or JT so they had to build their reputation a bit before they got the recognition they deserved.  In my opinion they put themselves on the map with stellar play while Long was given credit from the get-go because of his high draft position and has maintained it fairly well. I already think that his star is fading though whereas Zach and JT were both on the upswing at this point in their careers. Taylor has a legitimate shot at the Hall and Zach maybe would have if not for several other outstanding players at his position. The LT position is kinda weak right now, I don't see Long getting any Hall consideration unless he takes his play to another level or the Dolphins become a perrenial playoff team again.

If you want to make the point that Miami has not drafted long-term players very well, that's fine. But when you have to throw out crazy talk like "Jake Long wasn't really a franchise-quality pick" to justify your claim, it weakens your entire argument.

And when you base your whole argument to my case on 1 single guy that maybe we see slightly differently, your argument is as thin as swiss cheese.

[bsfins]

I guess,I see the list of players drafted by the Dolphins...

I see different hodge podge mixed up regimes all drafting what they thought they needed at the moment,while thinking that they're not that bad...My system,and we're just a player or two away mentality......Wannstedt/Speilman-Speilman/Wannstadt-Saban/Mueller-Mueller/Cameron..All played to the the one player mentality....Parcells/Ireland/Sparano started the rebuild,but after initial success,went right back to the we're not that bad one player away mentality.....Most of the past regimes IMO,publicly didn't want a "franchise" QB,it was more important to continue to keep running the ball and play good defense...

I also feel like bringing in a new "old and busted" we want to run the ball and play good defense...mentality front office will continue to drag out the process...

Just the way I see it...

[jtex316]

the game evolves over time, not over night... there certainly are innovators in changing the game.

the trend at all levels of football, is spread the field. what is the time to throw down to now, 3 seconds and the ball is out? precision routes and timing is where this thing is headed.

15 years ago precision was 10 yards and in, now it is down to inches blindfolded. 15 years ago corners could mug receivers and qb's actually got hit. isn't the case in today's nfl... hell i'll say 3-4 defense is an evolution predicated on the passing game. you can't really call it "nickel" corner anymore. its freaking 3rd cornerback because they practically play all downs now.

3,000 yards passing in a season used to be a remarkable feat. that is nothing in today's nfl.

look at the rex ryan defense. it's not a conventional in the trenches, de pass rushing defense. it's predicated on all different types of blitz schemes. fast and athletic is the new nfl, not plodding and big.

I'll go you one step further - it's not even where it's going - it's where we are now.

A coach like Tony Sparano with a "pound the ball first, conservative" approach to football is not able to adapt to the modern NFL. He may have been moderately to somewhat successful in a traditional halfback / fullback system where you only throw on 3rd and long and run in-between the tackles at all costs, and your defense blitzes maybe once per three downs with your inside linebacker in a conventional 4-3 scheme.

In today's NFL, that can't be your approach. You have to do all of the things that you just mentioned and then some. Perfect example: Look at how the Saints are using Darren Sproles as a "jack of all trades" RB (like how Bill Walsh began using Roger Craig). Look at how the person Sproles is replacing, Reggie Bush, is being used by the Dolphins - between the tackles for 2 yard gains.

That's just not today's NFL. It just doesn't work.

[Spider-Dan]

Maybe with Long. The rest you didn't even bother to refute.

That's correct.  That's because I am specifically and solely taking issue with the claim that Long is not a franchise player.

If your standard for drafting players is "must be better than Jake Long," have fun with the next 20 years of drafts.  In his quarter-century with the Dolphins, Shula (the greatest coach/GM Miami could ever hope to have) drafted maybe five players better than Long (Csonka, Griese, Stephenson, Marino, Webb).  In twenty-six years.  And we don't even know Long's ceiling yet.

Drop the Jake Long angle.  It's pointless and unsubstantiated.

[Pappy13]

That's correct.  That's because I am specifically and solely taking issue with the claim that Long is not a franchise player.

If your standard for drafting players is "must be better than Jake Long," have fun with the next 20 years of drafts.  In his quarter-century with the Dolphins, Shula (the greatest coach/GM Miami could ever hope to have) drafted maybe five players better than Long (Csonka, Griese, Stephenson, Marino, Webb).  In twenty-six years.  And we don't even know Long's ceiling yet.

Drop the Jake Long angle.  It's pointless and unsubstantiated.

Fair enough. We've had 1 franchise player brought to the team in the last 10 years via Draft/Trade/Free agency etc. Miami had about 15 in the 30 years prior to that.

[Spider-Dan]

Fair enough. We've had 1 franchise player brought to the team in the last 10 years via Draft/Trade/Free agency etc. Miami had about 15 in the 30 years prior to that.

Let me preface this by saying that (outside of Long) I haven't given much thought to this topic prior to today.

That being said, what is your definition of a franchise player?  (Future) Hall of Famers are obvious, but what about Mark Clayton, Mark Duper, Irving Fryar, O.J. McDuffie, Bryan Cox, Sam Madison, Brock Marion, and Patrick Surtain?  And if we count all of them, then how do we rate Vernon Carey, Ricky Williams, Yeremiah Bell, Joey Porter, Randy Starks, Davone Bess, Cameron Wake, Karlos Dansby, and Brandon Marshall?

[Pappy13]

Let me preface this by saying that (outside of Long) I haven't given much thought to this topic prior to today.

That being said, what is your definition of a franchise player?  (Future) Hall of Famers are obvious, but what about Mark Clayton, Mark Duper, Irving Fryar, O.J. McDuffie, Bryan Cox, Sam Madison, Brock Marion, and Patrick Surtain?  And if we count all of them, then how do we rate Vernon Carey, Ricky Williams, Yeremiah Bell, Joey Porter, Randy Starks, Davone Bess, Cameron Wake, Karlos Dansby, and Brandon Marshall?

I'd consider Duper, Clayton, Madison and Surtain franchise type players. Fryar probably was too, but he spent a lot of his time with other teams. McDuffie maybe would have been if his career wasn't cut short to injury. No to Marion, Cox, Carey, Bell, Porter, Starks and Bess.

Williams at the top of his game was franchise, but just not for long enough period of time. If he doesn't lose 2 years to drugs he is. Wake has a shot, but he's still got a lot to prove. I'm not that impressed with Dansby, but he too probably needs more time to assess. Marshall I'm judging by the way he's played for the Dolphins which is pretty good, but not enough for me to list him as a franchise type player. I didn't watch him much at Denver, his stats were incredible, I honestly don't know how he did it watching him play today. He doesn't appear to be the same player. He makes far too many bone headed plays. Far too many. Maybe he's just trying to do too much or perhaps he's started to believe the press clippings about himself and quit working at his craft or perhaps his mental condition has gotten worse over time. For whatever reason, I wouldn't even rate him the best WR on the Dolphins right now, it's either Bess or Hartline and while both are nice receivers, they are not franchise players.

If I was forced to come up with a definition, it would probably be a player that the opponent had to game plan for. Someone that you paid attention to everytime they stepped on the field. But they also have to do it for a number of years, not just a couple. 4 or 5 minimum I think. That's a franchise player.

Perhaps I'm selling Long short, I'm not really a guy to watch the offensive line and see what they do and Tackle tends to be a position where you really only notice them when they don't do their job, I'll admit that. But even when you put Long there and say that if Ricky doesn't lose those 2 years he's a Franchise player, that's still awfully thin pickings of late.