My biggest fear now

[Pappy13]

I'm not all that familiar with Peyton's situation, so I may just be talking out of my arse here.  But I'm not sure that he won't just retire during the off season.  He is getting up there in age, has an injury that could end up becoming a quality of life issue if he hurts it again, he has made more than enough money to live the good life, and his team is horrible.   Given all those factors, I would think that he would give consideration to just hanging it up.  And if he does, the Colts would be looking for Luck also.  But like the Dolphins, the Colts have a lot of position needs all over the field.

You underestimate how much football means to these guys and how big of an ego these guys have. No way Peyton calls it quits. He's got something to prove now, that he can come back from injury and be just as good as before the injury. No, I don't see Peyton just giving up that which he loves. It does happen like with Barry Sanders, but it's not often that the guys don't go kicking and screaming.

[Dolphster]

You underestimate how much football means to these guys and how big of an ego these guys have. No way Peyton calls it quits. He's got something to prove now, that he can come back from injury and be just as good as before the injury. No, I don't see Peyton just giving up that which he loves. It does happen like with Barry Sanders, but it's not often that the guys don't go kicking and screaming.

Yep, I definitely understand that is part of the equation too.  I was remiss in not putting that in my post as well.   Good point by you.

[phinphan]

  You saw how things went down in GB, not exactly a smooth transition.

GB did everything they could to talk favre out of retiring and he flat out refused.Then when they handed the reins to Aaron He wanted to play.I think GB did the right thing standing by Aaron at that point because they didnt force favre out.

[MikeO]

Peyton won't want Luck breathing down his back. Not with the hype Luck has. Peyton wouldn't allow that to happen. He would leave and force a trade elsewhere before that happens.

Hell Dungy said if Indy drafts Luck they will trade Peyton. Indy won't let that happen

[MikeO]

Actually of all the teams that I could see actually trading the 1st pick in the draft to Miami, Indy would be my 1st choice. They already have Peyton and trading #1 for #2 plus a couple of things of value, (Brandon Marshall anyone?) I could see them doing.

No team will trade the #1 pick which is essentially trading Luck.  No GM could ever live that down. But for a team to consider trading up the price tag is in the range of 3-4 1st round picks with a bunch of complementary picks around that. Probably two-2nd rounders and some other picks. Even if its only moving up 1 spot. I don't see it happening

This kid is a walking lottery ticket for any franchise. He will sell out your stadium, he will win you games, he will sell you a boat load of merchandise,  he will most likely over his career at worse win you at least 1 championship or have you playing for 1.....at worst!  These kind of players come around once in a generation you don't trade them away for anything.

[Pappy13]

^^Please forgive me if I think it's possible that NFL GM's, coaches and owners may have a bit of a different opinion than yours.

[Spider-Dan]

No team will trade the #1 pick which is essentially trading Luck.  No GM could ever live that down.

CAR and STL could most certainly "live that down."  Bradford is straight up untradeable (particularly since he has the last #1 deal under the old system), and both of those teams would be able to surround their existing #1 overall QB with a boatload of young talent.

Remember, plenty of (future) HOFers (Marino, Young, Kelly, Moon, Favre, even P.Manning) have the-same-or-less rings as a starting QB as Trent Dilfer, Brad Johnson, Mark Rypien, and Jeff Hostetler.  Surrounding a very good QB with lots of talent is a better long-term solution than going hard after the best QB; Aikman vs. Marino speaks volumes to this.

[MikeO]

Remember, plenty of (future) HOFers (Marino, Young, Kelly, Moon, Favre, even P.Manning) have the-same-or-less rings as a starting QB as Trent Dilfer, Brad Johnson, Mark Rypien, and Jeff Hostetler.  Surrounding a very good QB with lots of talent is a better long-term solution than going hard after the best QB; Aikman vs. Marino speaks volumes to this.

And those days of the NFL are gone, dead, and buried!! The days of having a run of the mill QB like Dilfer, Rypien, or Johnson and winning a ring are over with.  And they ain't coming back as long as the rules stay the way they are.

Once again who has won rings recently since the rule changes, teams with elite QB's.....Manning, Brady, Brees, Rodgers, Big Ben...etc. ELITE guys. If you want to try the Parcells type  model and win with a care-taker and build an all time defense around him, go for it. But we saw it with Parcells and it has failed. That type of building a team doesn't work anymore. TB did it in 2003 and they were the last,....that is almost a decade ago. The league has changed. If you think like the past (ie Parcells) you will fail.  So you keep telling yourself you don't need an elite QB to win, and you are only fooling yourself.

[Brian Fein]

But we saw it with Parcells and it has failed. That type of building a team doesn't work anymore.

We did?  When?

When did we have studs at every position on the field and a ho-hum QB?  Cause I don't recall that...

[Spider-Dan]

Once again who has won rings recently since the rule changes, teams with elite QB's.....Manning, Brady, Brees, Rodgers, Big Ben...etc. ELITE guys.

So you're saying that we need a QB at least as good as Roethlisberger (the QB with the worst SB performance of any championship team, ever) or Eli Manning (he of the career 81.4 passer rating) to win a title?  Or are those also too far back in prehistory to count?

edit: This discussion is practically pointless; we are going to quickly progress to the point where I mention that Mark Sanchez is statistically a bottom-third QB in the league, but his team has made two consecutive AFCC games, and you're going to say that that MAKES him an elite QB or some such circular logic.

Shorter version of your logic: in order to win in this league, you need a QB that wins.  They don't have to be a top passer, or a top scrambler, or play well in the Super Bowl... they just need to be on a team that wins.

[MikeO]

We did?  When?

When did we have studs at every position on the field and a ho-hum QB?  Cause I don't recall that...

Who said we did? But that's the type of team Parcells tried to build. That was his blueprint And you can't serious? STILL after all of these years since Marino has retired you still think you don't need a top QB to win? Parcells tried. He failed. We suck! The proof is in the pudding! You need a top flight QB in this NFL. Trying to build around a middle of the road QB (ie Chad Henne or Chad Pennington) doesn't work. The last team it worked for was the 2002-2003 Bucs. Almost a decade ago now. The league has changed. Parcells didn't keep up with the times. He failed. Obviously some here haven't kept up with the times too if you think you can win without an elite QB.

[MikeO]

So you're saying that we need a QB at least as good as Roethlisberger (the QB with the worst SB performance of any championship team, ever) or Eli Manning (he of the career 81.4 passer rating) to win a title?

Or are those also too far back in prehistory to count?

Big Ben also led a super bowl winning 2 minute drive vs Arizona and won his team a ring. You overlook that I noticed.

And Eli took a team that was a 6 seed, won 3 road playoff games then beat an unbeaten team in the Super Bowl with a late 4th quarter drive. He isn't elite? please!

Those 2 are elite. Big Ben is a hall of fame QB!!! If Jim Kelly is a hall of fame QB, Big Ben is. That's a fact! He will end up with better numbers than Kelly and a fist-full of rings

[Spider-Dan]

Big Ben also led a super bowl winning 2 minute drive vs Arizona and won his team a ring. You overlook that I noticed.

He won a championship with the worst SB performance of any winning QB ever.  That, to me, says that a team can win without elite QB play.

And Eli took a team that was a 6 seed, won 3 road playoff games then beat an unbeaten team in the Super Bowl with a late 4th quarter drive. He isn't elite? please!

Circular logic.  The ONLY evidence that you have that Eli is elite is that he went on a hot streak and won the SB.  He wasn't exceptional before and he hasn't been exceptional since.  He is, at best, a second-tier QB in the league... and that's being generous.

I repeat: if a career 81.4 passer rating (in your prime!) is the kind of "elite" QB needed to win a SB, Miami shouldn't have had many problems at all.

Big Ben is a hall of fame QB!!! If Jim Kelly is a hall of fame QB, Big Ben is. That's a fact! He will end up with better numbers than Kelly and a fist-full of rings

Big Ben and Kelly played in different eras.  Mark Rypien is not better than Johnny Unitas.

Terry Bradshaw has more rings than anyone else in this discussion.  Is he the kind of elite QB Miami should search for?

[MikeO]

^^ lets do it your way. Go find the next Chad Pennington and Chad Henne and try and win that way. Build around them. Because its worked so well for Miami and so many other teams in this league the past decade 

If you believe that, I'm not one to rain on your parade. You go root for a losing philosophy and tell me how it works out for ya


P.S....funny how you won't talk about that Pitt vs Arizona super bowl that Big Ben won with his heroics. Hmm, funny you keep ignoring that one. Oh wait, no its not! It kills your theory. And if you are hanging things on "passer rating".....John Elway retired with a career passer rating of 79.86. So using YOUR logic, Eli > Elway! Thanks! Johnny Unitas was 78.20. Eli is better than him too. Thanks for making my entire argument for me! I love debating with you!

[Spider-Dan]

MikeO, am I the one saying that elite QBs can't win Super Bowls?  No.

YOU are the one that is saying that you must have an elite QB to win a championship.  Big Ben was as far as you can get from an elite QB in SB XL, but PIT still won.  Eli has been merely above average for most of his career, and NYG won.  So your theory ("elite QB is required to win") is FALSE.  (blah blah Mark Sanchez etc.)

As for Eli vs. Elway or Unitas... why are you agreeing with points I just made?  Unitas, Elway, and Eli played in different eras and, therefore, cannot be directly compared by stats alone.  You know, kind of like comparing Big Ben and Jim Kelly, which you just did.

You should compare players to their contemporary peers; Big Ben and Eli to Rivers, Brees, and Rodgers.  Such a comparison is not flattering to Eli.

P.S. Eli is in his prime and has yet to suffer the career-ending years of decline that will drag his career passer rating down.  Not that a direct comparison of Eli to Elway or Unitas would be legitimate anyway, but the least you could do is compare them after Eli is retired.