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Author Topic: Tim Tebow is garbage.  (Read 137145 times)
bsmooth
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« Reply #285 on: December 13, 2011, 01:23:08 am »

A HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA! You're actually arguing that the KICKER has been more instrumental in their wins than Tebow?? OMG HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA! Everyone shut off your computers. The worst argument in the history of the internet has been made. We can all stop now. The kicker?  HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!

That is all. -EK


Why yes. Since this little 7-1 run has started, Prater has kicked the game winning FG four times. Those four also happened to be in OT each time. He was instrumental in tying the last three games and then winning in OT.
Just to point out how important and consistent Prater has for the Broncos
1. He scored the last 9 points to beat SD
2. He scored the last 6 points to beat Minn
3. He scored the last 6 points to beat Chicago
Several of these field goals were over 50yds with a lot of pressure on him to either win or go to OT.
Then when you throw in the interception return for a TD against the Jets, you get the amazing stat that five of the last seven Broncos wins were accomplished by people not named Tebow.
This is why I have said all along that the Broncos as a team are playing well, and it is not all because of one man.
But since you foolishly cling to the whole "one man" argument, I showed how that can be used to show how one man not named Tebow has put the Broncos onto his shoulders this season and delivered in the clutch time and time again.
But I suppose you are going to stick with the messiah.
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EKnight
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« Reply #286 on: December 13, 2011, 07:57:26 am »

Tebow is Mark Sanchez without the accuracy.  I have yet to hear any Tebow supporter explain why Sanchez, with his NFL record 4 road playoff wins, is not the-same-or-better compared to Tebow.

If "record is the only thing that counts," why haven't you all been singing the praises of the Sanchize for the last 3 years?

Have some consistency.

This isn't a new argument by you, Spider. I, for one, lready told you that the difference to me is that Sanchez had those four wins over the span of a few seasons. Tebow has won 6 in a row, is 7-1, and has 6 comeback wins in one season. I've never heard of anything like that. Who does that?? If Sanchez would have had all of those wins in one year, the story would be bigger than Tebow, because he would have won the Super Bowl. I don't discount at all what Mark has done in NY. In a lot of ways, he's Tebow with a better arm, but who is less mobile. He has been the beneficiary of a great D, very strong running game, and seems to come up big when it matters most, even if he's played poorly in a game for three quarters. That's pretty much Tebow as well isn't it?

BSmooth- when did I EVER say it was a one man show? When did I EVER say that Tebow was the only reason they are winning? I have repeatedly said that he beneftits from a great system, a strong running game, and a terrific defense. I've also said that right now he's about the 10th QB I'd take in the NFL. Not first; not top three; not even top five. Reread my posts- they haven't changed. The guy has 6 comeback wins in 11 career starts. That's insane. No one in recent NFL history has done anything like that. He's doing it with a team full of offensive nobodies. Willing to bet that not one player on the offense makes the pro bowl, and the one guy who might have got traded as soon as Tebow became a starter. To argue that Tebow has NOTHING to do with the wins, and that somehow the kicker (wtf?) is the offensive super hero is nuts. Prater didn't get them in position to kick those game winners did he? Did he run or pass for any TD's? Did he run in either of the 2-pt conversions Denver has used to even get to OT? The only thing on the entire team that has changed in the past 8 games is Tebow became the starter. If the team is good enough to win NOW, without any contribution whatsoever from Tebow, why were they 1-4 before he became a starter? No, not a "one man" argument at all; but you certainly can not discount that the team is better with him. The records speak for themselves. 1 or 2 or even 5 wins might be coincidental, but 7-1? And you really believe that he has NOTHING to do with this? -EK
« Last Edit: December 13, 2011, 09:19:26 am by EKnight » Logged
Spider-Dan
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« Reply #287 on: December 13, 2011, 05:33:55 pm »

This isn't a new argument by you, Spider. I, for one, lready told you that the difference to me is that Sanchez had those four wins over the span of a few seasons. Tebow has won 6 in a row, is 7-1, and has 6 comeback wins in one season. I've never heard of anything like that.
Tebow hasn't even made the playoffs yet.  Mark Sanchez has taken his team, on the road, to the AFC Championship game two years in a row.  Yet while you are here vehemently defending Tebow, here is what you have had to say about the QB that has already produced a record number of road playoff wins (emphasis added):

(regarding winning meaningful games)
"Neither has Sanchez. THAT'S the point. He has been on some teams that have done those things, but acting like he won the damn games for them is like saying Brad Johnson "won" the Super Bowl for the Bucs in Super Bowl XXXVII. He- and Sanchez- are merely along for the ride." (link)

"This is why I would- after ALL the crap that's been slung about him- still have Henne over Sanchez. As a third year QB, you HAVE to understand the offense well enough to either make the correct call at that point, or let the clock wind down before you call timeout. Maybe Sanchez was still having flashbacks of the ridiculous "flinch" play from the previous week? Who knows, but he and Rex both suck; him for the play, Rex for the comment." (link)

So if I am to understand you correctly, Sanchez (with his 4 road playoff wins) has never won a meaningful game, and was just along for the ride.  Yet we're supposed to believe that Tebow (who has yet to make the playoffs) is any different?  And you claimed that you'd take Henne over Sanchez... would you also take Henne over Tebow?

The bottom line is, any train of logic that leads to the conclusion that Tebow is a good QB also leads to the conclusion that Sanchez is a great QB.  As a person who has followed the AFC East, such a statement should create some cognitive dissonance for you.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2011, 05:38:32 pm by Spider-Dan » Logged

EKnight
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« Reply #288 on: December 13, 2011, 06:08:27 pm »


(regarding winning meaningful games)
"Neither has Sanchez. THAT'S the point. He has been on some teams that have done those things, but acting like he won the damn games for them is like saying Brad Johnson "won" the Super Bowl for the Bucs in Super Bowl XXXVII. He- and Sanchez- are merely along for the ride." (link)

"This is why I would- after ALL the crap that's been slung about him- still have Henne over Sanchez. As a third year QB, you HAVE to understand the offense well enough to either make the correct call at that point, or let the clock wind down before you call timeout. Maybe Sanchez was still having flashbacks of the ridiculous "flinch" play from the previous week? Who knows, but he and Rex both suck; him for the play, Rex for the comment." (link)

So if I am to understand you correctly, Sanchez (with his 4 road playoff wins) has never won a meaningful game, and was just along for the ride.  Yet we're supposed to believe that Tebow (who has yet to make the playoffs) is any different?  And you claimed that you'd take Henne over Sanchez... would you also take Henne over Tebow?

The bottom line is, any train of logic that leads to the conclusion that Tebow is a good QB also leads to the conclusion that Sanchez is a great QB.  As a person who has followed the AFC East, such a statement should create some cognitive dissonance for you.

I'm man enough to admit I was wrong about Sanchez. He will likely finish with close to 30 TD's this year, and his completion % has increased every season. I stand by the fact that I say Sanchez did not win those playoff games by himself. He had the help of a great D and great running game- hey- didn't I just say that about Tebow? You can't twist my words to fit your argument; you're claiming that I said he's never been on the winning side of a meaningful game. That's not even close to what I said or meant, and you know it. Reread the context of my post- Sanchez hasn't "won" (as in, carried the team and won the game for them) those meaningful games. Maybe it's hard to decipher inflection in print here. But, when did I ever say they won in spite of Sanchez's play? That seems to be the consensus about Tebow from you guys- that Denver wins in spite of him. That's my argument- they don't. He's every bit as responsible for their wins as Sanchez is for the Jets.

And what about your repeated argument that Tebow sucks so bad, he doesn't "qualify" for QB rating? How ironic is it that he IS currently ranked, DOES in fact qualify, and is ranked ahead of Sanchez. In fact, he's #14, with two guys ahead of him injured. Haven't I said repeatedly that I'd take Tebow at about #10 among current players? Of the guys ahead of him, removing Schaub and Cutler for injuries, I'd put Aaron Rodgers, Tom Brady, Drew Brees, Tony Romo, Ben Roethlisberger, Eli Manning, and Matthew Stafford clealry ahead of him, Alex Smith and Matt Ryan maybe not so clearly ahead, and- based on their play THIS year- Philip Rivers and Matt Moore behind him. So look at that- #10 isn't really that crazy based on the numbers, and once again, it's not like I said he's the entire team or the best QB in football. The problem with you Tebow haters is you fail to see any POV other than, "He sucks." I never claimed he was an MVP or a Pro-Bowl QB, I simply said he's been a valuable contributer to each of their wins. Somehow you guys keeo twisting that because for reasons known only to you, you can only see in black and white over this issue. -EK
 
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Spider-Dan
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« Reply #289 on: December 13, 2011, 06:34:54 pm »

I'm man enough to admit I was wrong about Sanchez.
So the 2+ years of Sanchez you had already seen weren't enough to convince you (less than a month ago, you preferred Henne over Sanchez), but somehow, the last 4 weeks have won you over?  I guess if that's what it takes to continue to praise Tebow, I commend you for your determination.

Quote
I stand by the fact that I say Sanchez did not win those playoff games by himself. He had the help of a great D and great running game- hey- didn't I just say that about Tebow? [...] He's every bit as responsible for their wins as Sanchez is for the Jets.
So then, I presume you are willing to say that Tebow is as responsible for the Broncos' wins as Brad Johnson was for the Bucs' championship (just as you did for Sanchez)?

I mean, if you're seriously willing to concede that Tebow is the Brad Johnson or Trent Dilfer of 2011, I have no objection to that.  In fact, to be perfectly honest, if you're willing to admit that Tebow and Sanchez are equally responsible for their teams' records, that's totally fine with me.  That's been my point the whole time.

Everyone on this board is well and thoroughly aware of Sanchez and his role in the Jets' performances.  If you agree that Tebow is the new Sanchez, that says more than enough.
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EKnight
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« Reply #290 on: December 13, 2011, 06:38:43 pm »

Seriously are you blind or just dense? I actually posted that they are basically the same player like six posts ago? Yet you are STILL going on about this. It amazes me that you ignore EVERY valid point I make to further perpetuate an argument that I acquiesced to already. What- no response to the QB rating comment that you are wrong about? Nothing to say about the fact that I repeatedly put him around ten but you somehow incorrectly argue that means I said he's number one? Don't dodge the things you're wrong about. If you're gonna have a set big enough to call me out if I'm incorrect, have a set big enough to admit when you're incorrect too. -EK
« Last Edit: December 13, 2011, 06:46:23 pm by EKnight » Logged
bsmooth
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« Reply #291 on: December 13, 2011, 06:46:14 pm »

The problem with you Tebow haters is you fail to see any POV other than, "He sucks." I never claimed he was an MVP or a Pro-Bowl QB, I simply said he's been a valuable contributer to each of their wins

No, the problem we have is that he is being given full credit for the whole turn around. We "haters" just point out that the teams is playing better and he is part of a whole team.
I for one have not said he is a horrible QB or even the worst in the league. I see the current 7-1 streak for what it is, a coming together of many factors that have allowed the Broncos the opportunity to win.
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EKnight
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« Reply #292 on: December 13, 2011, 06:55:23 pm »

Bullshit BSmooth. The title of this thread is "Tebow is garbage." YOU tried to argue the kicker is a more valuable player than the starting QB. How is that not saying he is horrible? No one here- least of all me- is giving him full credit for anything. That's the problem: Tebow is a massive media story because he's a good kid and the team is winning. Nobody's giving him the credit you claim. All the haters just think that because he's a feel-good story, that means everyone is saying he's the greatest qb since forever. NOBODY is saying that, so what exactly is your point? -EK
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Spider-Dan
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« Reply #293 on: December 13, 2011, 07:10:07 pm »

What- no response to the QB rating comment that you are wrong about?
If the Broncos make the playoffs this season, are you then going to come back to this thread and crow about how I said Tebow has never played in a playoff game, and insist that I admit I was wrong?

Posts have timestamps attached to them.  At the time I made that post, Tebow did not qualify for the NFL's passer statistics page.  After starting 7  games.  And now you want to cheer because he finally qualified on his 8th?  This is you "proving me wrong"?  Please.

Quote
Nothing to say about the fact that I repeatedly put him around ten but you somehow incorrectly argue that means I said he's number one?
On one hand, you claim you put him at around ten.
At the same time, you claim that 30 starting QBs wish they were playing as well as him.  32 - 30 = top 2.

Don't get mad at me for holding you to your own statements.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2011, 07:12:24 pm by Spider-Dan » Logged

EKnight
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« Reply #294 on: December 13, 2011, 07:25:30 pm »

I never said thirty guys wish they were playing as well as him. Again- you're outting words in my mouth. What I said was- and I'm quoting directly: "There's 30 other QB's in the NFL right now that wish they could say, "I've only lost one game this year as a starter." That hasn't changed. And it doesn't imply that I think he's number two in the league, not matter how much you want it to. Regarding the "qualifying for QB rating thing," didn't I say that if had played a whole season at that point he would have qualified? You tried to make an argument about it because he didn't play in any of the first four games and most of the fifth. Your argument fell flat the second he had enough passes, because it only proves what I said from the start- if he'd have played all year, he would have been in the list from the get go. -EK
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Spider-Dan
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« Reply #295 on: December 13, 2011, 07:58:58 pm »

I never said thirty guys wish they were playing as well as him.  Again- you're outting words in my mouth. What I said was- and I'm quoting directly: "There's 30 other QB's in the NFL right now that wish they could say, "I've only lost one game this year as a starter." That hasn't changed. And it doesn't imply that I think he's number two in the league, not matter how much you want it to.
So let me get this straight:

- his awesome record indicates that he's a quality QB (to the exclusion of other statistics)
- 30 other starting QBs have a worse record than him

HOWEVER

- we are not to infer that your reference to his #2 record should be used to rank him as a QB?

You can't continually scream about his amazing record and then act shocked when people hold you to those statements.  Are we to use his record to rank him, or not?  If not, why do you continually keep referring to it?

Quote
Regarding the "qualifying for QB rating thing," didn't I say that if had played a whole season at that point he would have qualified?
For the fourth time:  He had started as many games as Matt Moore, who had already qualified (and was on the list).  Your argument is therefore nullified; Tebow's exclusion had nothing to do with the number of games he had played and everything to do with the number of passes he had thrown.

If you make any reply on this subject, please address why Matt Moore was already on the list (as you have continually avoided doing so).  And while we're on the subject, please address how you have Rivers and Moore ranked below Tebow (based on their play this year!) when they are both above him in passer rating.  Let me guess: it's because Tebow's record is better?
« Last Edit: December 13, 2011, 08:05:04 pm by Spider-Dan » Logged

bsmooth
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« Reply #296 on: December 13, 2011, 08:08:29 pm »

Bullshit BSmooth. The title of this thread is "Tebow is garbage." YOU tried to argue the kicker is a more valuable player than the starting QB. How is that not saying he is horrible? No one here- least of all me- is giving him full credit for anything. That's the problem: Tebow is a massive media story because he's a good kid and the team is winning. Nobody's giving him the credit you claim. All the haters just think that because he's a feel-good story, that means everyone is saying he's the greatest qb since forever. NOBODY is saying that, so what exactly is your point? -EK

No I used the kicker to point out the ridiculous notion that one person made the difference on the team. Tebow is a massive story because of all the hype surrounding his religious beliefs in college and after.
You have repeatedly attacked what I have said showing stats and other factors as hating, then you go and agree with Dave who is basically saying the same thing I am.
All you keep saying is he is a winner. Well guess what, so are all the other players on the team. Yet it is somehow only relevant to Tebow. Guess what the other guys who played with Tebow in college and are now in the NFL are winners too, since they also went 33-5 in college with national championships.
Tebow has been surrounded by talent and coaches who knew how to coach to his strengths since he was a freshmen at Florida.
You need to get off your "hater" high horse and realize that some of us who are not drinking the Tebow kool aid are doing it based on what we are seeing on the field and what the rest of the team is doing.
The Broncos are 8-5 because of many factors, which they have taken advantage of. Not because of a player you labeled a "ONE-IN-A-MILLION" talent. That would make him one of the best players ever in the NFL.
You and the Tebowites continue to give too much credit to one man, while ignoring the other accomplishments of the other men on the field on both sides of the ball.
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EKnight
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« Reply #297 on: December 14, 2011, 08:54:16 am »

So let me get this straight:

- his awesome record indicates that he's a quality QB (to the exclusion of other statistics)
- 30 other starting QBs have a worse record than him

HOWEVER

- we are not to infer that your reference to his #2 record should be used to rank him as a QB?

You can't continually scream about his amazing record and then act shocked when people hold you to those statements.  Are we to use his record to rank him, or not?  If not, why do you continually keep referring to it?
For the fourth time:  He had started as many games as Matt Moore, who had already qualified (and was on the list).  Your argument is therefore nullified; Tebow's exclusion had nothing to do with the number of games he had played and everything to do with the number of passes he had thrown.

If you make any reply on this subject, please address why Matt Moore was already on the list (as you have continually avoided doing so).  And while we're on the subject, please address how you have Rivers and Moore ranked below Tebow (based on their play this year!) when they are both above him in passer rating.  Let me guess: it's because Tebow's record is better?

Definitely NOT to the exclusion of anything. He has the highest QB rating in the fourth quarter of ANY starter this year. How do you keep conveniently ignoring that? You're trying desperately to make an apple-apples comparison out of apples-oranges. You can't tell me that almost every other starter wouldn't want to only have one loss. In no way does that infer Tebow is better. If you take that out of context and out of my statement, that's YOUR issue, not mine. By your own admission, I've put Tebow around #10 in the league. Trying to twist my words to imply something else is fodder. Alex Smith's team has a better record than Romo or Manning's. Bet those guys would love to only have three losses, but I'm in no way implying by that statement that are worse QB's than Smith. You can't draw that correlation. Matt Moore (and a lot of other guys) were on the list because they run a completely different offense than Denver. Your point that Tebow should be penalized in the eyes of the fans/media because he didn't "qualify" for the list is dumb. His offense isn't set up to give him a ton of passing attempts. My point- which clearly went over your head- was that as soon as Tebow DID qualify, he would be at least middle of the pack, not as bad as you keep saying he is.

Re. BSmooth's comments, simply put it comes down to this- the team is the exact same as it was (minus a pro bowl caliber receiver) before he started. Explain to me this- not something else, not your personal agenda against Tebow or any other argument, just this, and this only: If the only change Denver made after going 1-4 was at QB, and they have since gone 7-1, how can you argue that Tebow deserves NO credit? I never said, implied or argued he deserves ALL the credit; I've repeated several times that his defense and running game contribute heavily, so don't even start with the "You say it's all Tebow." I don't say that; I've never said that. I'm saying that without Tebow they are a .250 team; with him they are a .875 team. Explain that to me. -EK
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Spider-Dan
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« Reply #298 on: December 14, 2011, 09:20:24 am »

He has the highest QB rating in the fourth quarter of ANY starter this year. How do you keep conveniently ignoring that?
Because the 4th quarter is a quarter just like any other?

If you expect me to give Tebow accolades because he doesn't show up for the first three quarters of the game, you're sadly mistaken.  (I wonder what his passer rating rank is for the first 3/4ths of games?)  I subscribe to the same theory that Aaron Rodgers recently espoused on his weekly radio show: if you do your job properly in the first three quarters, you don't need 4th quarter heroics.

Quote
You can't tell me that almost every other starter wouldn't want to only have one loss. In no way does that infer Tebow is better.
So please explain why you rank Tebow above Moore and Rivers, exactly?  If it's not record, then what is it?

Quote
Matt Moore (and a lot of other guys) were on the list because they run a completely different offense than Denver.
That's correct: like every other team in the NFL, they run an offense in which the QB does not get over 25% of his yardage production on the ground.  In other words, they run an offense where quarterbacks are expected to be proficient at passing.

Quote
Your point that Tebow should be penalized in the eyes of the fans/media because he didn't "qualify" for the list is dumb. His offense isn't set up to give him a ton of passing attempts.
On the same team, Orton was averaging 35.5 attempts per game.  Tebow is averaging 18.  The reason why his offense "isn't set up" to give him passing attempts is specifically because he is the quarterback.

Quote
My point- which clearly went over your head- was that as soon as Tebow DID qualify, he would be at least middle of the pack, not as bad as you keep saying he is.
And my point is that he passes the ball so infrequently that he didn't qualify at all, and barely qualifies now.  The reason why he doesn't pass that often is because, in spite of his "middle of the pack" passer rating, his coaches don't trust him as a passer.  This is not the hallmark of a quality QB.
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EKnight
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« Reply #299 on: December 14, 2011, 09:33:37 am »

So, I'm guessing by your logic, LBJ is severely overrated because he doesn't perform well throughout the entire game right? He only performs well 3/4 of the game so any success his team has can't be his doing- gotta play well the whole game, right? Would you rather have a guy who is great 3/4 of the game and then disappears in the final quarter, putting his team in a position to lose, or a guy who plays poorly 3/4 of the game and then is the best player in his sport (and don't even try to say he isn't- the numbers don't lie) in the fourth, putting his team in a position to win?

You know what? Don't even bother answering that. I've repeatedly agreed with everyone that Tebow is a factor in the success of the Broncos and that the D and running game have a lot to do with it as well. Somehow you keep wanting to argue something I'm not even saying. The two biggest stories in the NFL this year are the Packers and Tebow, but ESPN, the NFL, every media outlet, and every sportscaster must ALL be wrong and you guys must be right. You can't make sense out of nonsense, so believe whatever you want. -EK
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