Piracy vs. Theft

[Dave Gray]

I always like this debate and since it started in the other thread, I figured I'd continue it here.  Also, there's some new questions being raised because of advances in technology.



This is a 3D printer.  It is used to create plastic models for engineering...to make mock-ups of potential products very quickly.  They are finally getting somewhat reasonable in price for regular use.  As this technology continues to evolve, it will be able to create more complicated things out of different materials.

So, take a company like IKEA.  They sell you a box of carved wood, screws, and plastic pieces to put together furniture.  What happens when you can "download" the schematics and instructions to your 3D printer and create an EXACT replica of what IKEA provides, only for the price of the raw materials in the printer?

I think that this is a reality that is coming sooner than later, where we may be able to download a significant amount of actual products, rather than having to go to a store and buy them.  This will be extremely convenient for things that break.  Imagine if you lose a specific screw and can just do to the manufacturer's website and download the replacement...

[Pappy13]

I don't know. It has potential, but I still don't see a radical shift in people's purchasing habits happening right away. There's still something about purchasing things at a brick and mortar store that appeals to people and there's some logistics that make sense doing it that way as well. If I need a screw, how tough is it to go Lowe's and purchase it there? If I want to "print" it at home, wouldn't I need the right "printing" materials for example? Perhaps what you might see is Lowe's eliminating a lot of the their stock and "printing" items for you from raw materials, but I don't see people doing it in their homes at least not for a while.

[Spider-Dan]

...OK, I just wanted an excuse to post that pic.

The 3D printer is just one more step to real-life Trek-style replicators.  When those become available, you will see the real war over "intellectual property."  That will be when the rubber truly meets the road over the "ownership" of ideas.

Anyway, with regard to the whole Netflix thing, here's a thought experiment: which of the following is abuse of copyright?

a) I allow my neighbor to repeatedly order DVDs under my Netflix DVD account
b) I allow my neighbor to repeatedly stream movies under my Netflix streaming account
c) My neighbor comes over and rips one of my Netflix DVDs to a video file, brings it home, watches it, and deletes it
d) same as c), but my neighbor doesn't delete it

[Dave Gray]

I don't know. It has potential, but I still don't see a radical shift in people's purchasing habits happening right away. There's still something about purchasing things at a brick and mortar store that appeals to people and there's some logistics that make sense doing it that way as well. If I need a screw, how tough is it to go Lowe's and purchase it there? If I want to "print" it at home, wouldn't I need the right "printing" materials for example? Perhaps what you might see is Lowe's eliminating a lot of the their stock and "printing" items for you from raw materials, but I don't see people doing it in their homes at least not for a while.

Today, of course not.  But when these things are standard, it's so much easier to go online, fine the EXACT part you need, print it, and be done.  You say that people like to go into a brick and mortar store.  They don't.  Otherwise, you'd buy from record stores, which are all but dead.  It's much better to instantly get what you want FOR FREE than it is to drive somewhere, try to find the right thing, and pay for it.

[Pappy13]

Today, of course not.  But when these things are standard, it's so much easier to go online, fine the EXACT part you need, print it, and be done.  You say that people like to go into a brick and mortar store.  They don't.  Otherwise, you'd buy from record stores, which are all but dead.  It's much better to instantly get what you want FOR FREE than it is to drive somewhere, try to find the right thing, and pay for it.

There's a big difference between hardware and software. Music, Video, Games etc are software, easy to download and use, you don't need any raw materials.  Hardware is a different matter. You are going to have to have the raw materials at your house to "print" the item. You thinking that all items will be able to be printed from the same raw materials? I'm not sure that's feasible. It might be, but I'm not sure. Even if it is possible you'll have to purchase the raw materials, it won't be "free".

Let's compare it to something more along the lines of what you are talking about. Suppose you want a color picture from your camera to frame on the wall. You might print that at home with your printer, paper, ink etc but a LOT of people still go to Walmart and have them do it. That way you don't have the printer nor the raw materials, Walmart supplies all that for you, plus if you have questions how to do it, they'll help you get it done. On top of that Walmart probably can afford to have a nicer printer with better software so that results are better, you can customize it etc. That's why I was suggesting perhaps you'll see Lowe's doing the "printing" for you rather than it done in your home. There are good reason to have Walmart print a photo for you rather than doing it yourself even though it can be done that way and there are lots of people who take advantage of that even though they could do it in their homes.

[Dave Gray]

I don't think that example is as close as you might.

People get digital pictures so they don't HAVE to print.  Compare digital cameras to those that still use film.  Also, there's not scarcity in printing (there is with hardware) and there's no difficultly in finding what you want.  I just don't think it's a 1:1 comparison.  Also, the quality isn't exact.  If people's homes could print photos at the exact same quality as Walmart, I guarantee that they wouldn't go there to pay for photos.  We're talking about exact replicas.

I agree with you about the materials, but assume that you have the raw materials and the tech exists in people's homes.  We're speculating, after all.

Let's simplify to something much closer to what we can do right now:

Let's say that we're only working with clear plastics.  You can go to Target and buy a set of Miami Dolphins insulated drinking glasses.  Let's say that this costs $30 for a set of 4.  You can print an EXACT replica of these by downloading the plans, given that you have the raw material.  This will essentially save you $30.  ...or thereabouts.

Or this -- let's say you have an alarm clock with a plastic face.  It falls and the face cracks.  You can't just go to Lowe's and buy a replacement alarm clock face.  But if you had the 3D model info, you could print a replacement today.  The same goes for more expensive things, like taillight covers.  Rather than going to the dealer and paying to get them to mail out for your specific model, you just print a new one, instantly, by going online and downloading the plans. 

[Phishfan]

Let's simplify to something much closer to what we can do right now:

Let's say that we're only working with clear plastics.  You can go to Target and buy a set of Miami Dolphins insulated drinking glasses.  Let's say that this costs $30 for a set of 4.  You can print an EXACT replica of these by downloading the plans, given that you have the raw material.  This will essentially save you $30.  ...or thereabouts.

 

Except it will be a replica of completely clear plastic. There will be no color to the logos at all. You would then have to take the time to color the logo yourself. Also, typically the logo would not actually be in the design of the plastic glass itself. The logo is usually in the form of a pattern within the layers of plastic. Because of that, I don't think you would have any sort of design at all. You would just have clear plastic drinking glasses wouldn't you?

[Dave Gray]

I was creating a fictional product of a plastic cup with the Fins logo etched in the side.  Something like this:

[Pappy13]

People get digital pictures so they don't HAVE to print.

What does that have to do with my scenario? You are wanting a photo to mount on a wall. You need a hardware solution, not a software solution. This is the exact same scenario that you are talking about when you are talking about needing a bolt. You are looking for a piece of hardware, not a piece of software.

Also, the quality isn't exact.

Bingo. You really think these devices are gonna get cheap enough that anyone could put one in their home AND there will be no difference from going to someplace that has a mucher higher quality "printer"?

If people's homes could print photos at the exact same quality as Walmart, I guarantee that they wouldn't go there to pay for photos.  We're talking about exact replicas.

I don't know, I have a fairly nice printer at home that can print pretty high quality images, on par with Walmart, however I still go to Walmart mainly for 1 reason, I don't want to purchase a large stock of photo quality paper and have it laying around the house because I don't need it very often. I only need to print a high quality image once in a blue moon. Why would I want to purchase a stack of photo quality paper and keep it around the house, have to swap it in for my normal paper, change the printer settings so that it prints a high quality photo, etc? It's just as easy for me to simply take my little USB to Walmart, plug it in and print out a high quality photo in seconds. It's not just about quality, it's about the logistics of using it. When you take all of that into consideration, it's not quite as convenient as simply point and click and presto.

I agree with you about the materials, but assume that you have the raw materials and the tech exists in people's homes.  We're speculating, after all.

Well where did you get the raw materials? Did you buy them? So you had to go to the store to get them? How much did you have to pay for the materials? What if you screw up and waste a bunch of raw materials? What if you don't load the right type into the "printer" etc? I think you're simply glossing over all these potential issues like they don't matter. They do matter. That's why people don't print pictures at home today, because it's NOT simply point and click and presto, there's more to it than that and even though it's really convenient to print at home, it's not necessarily better. And I'm just talking about printing photos here, not 3 dimensional objects which I'm sure is gonna be slightly more complicated than photos no matter how good the hardware/software.

Let's say that we're only working with clear plastics.  You can go to Target and buy a set of Miami Dolphins insulated drinking glasses.  Let's say that this costs $30 for a set of 4.  You can print an EXACT replica of these by downloading the plans, given that you have the raw material. This will essentially save you $30.  ...or thereabouts.

What did the raw material cost? You have to subtract that out.You're not gonna save $30, maybe you save $10. These things aren't created out of thin air, you have to put the raw materials into the "printer".

Or this -- let's say you have an alarm clock with a plastic face.  It falls and the face cracks.  You can't just go to Lowe's and buy a replacement alarm clock face.  But if you had the 3D model info, you could print a replacement today.  The same goes for more expensive things, like taillight covers.  Rather than going to the dealer and paying to get them to mail out for your specific model, you just print a new one, instantly, by going online and downloading the plans.

It's a great invention and perhaps one day it will have some very useful home applications, but I think you are jumping the gun just a bit. Just because the technology exists, doesn't mean everyone is going to rush out and get one and do it in their home. The reality is that type of paradigm shift takes time.

By the way, the printer you have in your photo above? 75 grand. When they come down to around 3 grand let's talk.

[Dave Gray]

What does that have to do with my scenario?

I just don't think photos are a good example, because digital photos are an acceptable alternative to printing photos.  It's not just a "purchase" vs. "pirate" like what we're talking about.  It introduces a third choice: print vs. purchase vs. neither.  But this is semantics.  It doesn't really matter.

Bingo. You really think these devices are gonna get cheap enough that anyone could put one in their home AND there will be no difference from going to someplace that has a mucher higher quality "printer"?

Eventually, yes -- prices will be cheaper.  That's a given to this hypothetical.  We're starting with the assumption that this is a device readily available in homes and that the medium used to create it is relatively inexpensive.  Think like when VCRs because mainstream and tapes were cheap enough so that regular people could record television.

I don't know, I have a fairly nice printer at home that can print pretty high quality images, on par with Walmart, however I still go to Walmart mainly for 1 reason, I don't want to purchase a large stock of photo quality paper and have it laying around the house because I don't need it very often. I only need to print a high quality image once in a blue moon. Why would I want to purchase a stack of photo quality paper and keep it around the house, have to swap it in for my normal paper, change the printer settings so that it prints a high quality photo, etc? It's just as easy for me to simply take my little USB to Walmart, plug it in and print out a high quality photo in seconds. It's not just about quality, it's about the logistics of using it. When you take all of that into consideration, it's not quite as convenient as simply point and click and presto.

Again...photos are just a bad example.  It doesn't fit what I'm talking about.  You don't have any difficultly "finding" the photo you want, scarcity doesn't exist.  You can't go to walmart with a chance that they won't "have" your photo.  It's also not 1:1, because we're not to a point where photo printers are in everyone's homes.  Also photo printers do 1 thing: they print photos.  They doesn't have the versatility to print things for multiple uses, like we're talking about.

Well where did you get the raw materials? Did you buy them? So you had to go to the store to get them? How much did you have to pay for the materials? What if you screw up and waste a bunch of raw materials? What if you don't load the right type into the "printer" etc? I think you're simply glossing over all these potential issues like they don't matter. They do matter. That's why people don't print pictures at home today, because it's NOT simply point and click and presto, there's more to it than that and even though it's really convenient to print at home, it's not necessarily better. And I'm just talking about printing photos here, not 3 dimensional objects which I'm sure is gonna be slightly more complicated than photos no matter how good the hardware/software.
What did the raw material cost? You have to subtract that out.You're not gonna save $30, maybe you save $10. These things aren't created out of thin air, you have to put the raw materials into the "printer".

Again, we're assuming that the tech is available and relatively inexpensive. 

It's a great invention and perhaps one day it will have some very useful home applications, but I think you are jumping the gun just a bit. Just because the technology exists, doesn't mean everyone is going to rush out and get one and do it in their home. The reality is that type of paradigm shift takes time.

Of course it takes time.  We're talking about 30 years from now, IF these are common, what does it mean?

[Pappy13]

I just don't think photos are a good example, because digital photos are an acceptable alternative to printing photos.

Not for framing on the wall they aren't.

You don't have any difficultly "finding" the photo you want, scarcity doesn't exist.

Ok, so let's say instead of you having one of these in your home, you can go to Walmart instead? They can download the design and print it out there for you, just like the photos. Why wouldn't that be a good alternative just like with photo's? You don't have to have the printer, you dont' have to have the raw materials, you don't need to find the design Wallmart will have a link to the internet where you can simply download the design and off you go. What's wrong with doing it this way? Doesn't this make more sense or at the very least just as much sense?

[Dave Gray]

Why are we still stuck on photos?

People don't print photos to hang on the wall because the technology is not readily available in homes.  It's also not cost effective.  Therefore, it doesn't apply to this hypothetical example.

If we could cheaply and easily print our own photos that were EXACT replicas of the kind you could buy at the store, people wouldn't go to the store for photos anymore.

[Pappy13]

Why are we still stuck on photos?

Because you don't have an answer. The scenario you are proposing is JUST like photo's are today, but you don't want to admit it.

People don't print photos to hang on the wall because the technology is not readily available in homes.  It's also not cost effective.  Therefore, it doesn't apply to this hypothetical example.

What? I have several photo's that my wife took on my walls in my house. I have pictures of my kids in frames scattered around the house that we took. You don't do this? Granted not everyone does this, but WE do and WE have a printer that is capable of doing it and yet we still use Walmart because it's just as convenient. It is cost effective. I'd probably save a buck or 2 every time I printed a photo if I did it at home, I already have the printer, because I use the printer a lot, just not for photo's.

If we could cheaply and easily print our own photos that were EXACT replicas of the kind you could buy at the store, people wouldn't go to the store for photos anymore.

I can, but I don't. It's not an exact replica, but you can't tell the difference from the photo I print on my printer and the ones we get from Walmart. I have done it this way, but we usually don't. We don't do it because of the quality we do it because it's simply very easy to do at Walmart or Wallgreens or something like that. There's practically one on every corner. Why do I need to do it at the house? Maybe if I lived out in the country away from the city then it makes more sense, but the reality is that folks that live out in the country are even less likely to print a photo in their own home then I am. Can't really see them fabricating their own drinking cups.

[Dave Gray]

I'm done circlejerking.  I've explained why I don't think it's the same.

You don't have any difficultly "finding" the photo you want, scarcity doesn't exist.  You can't go to walmart with a chance that they won't "have" your photo.  It's also not 1:1, because we're not to a point where photo printers are in everyone's homes.  Also photo printers do 1 thing: they print photos.  They doesn't have the versatility to print things for multiple uses, like we're talking about.

[Dave Gray]

Photos are your own creation.  You aren't pirating your own photos by printing them at home.  It's just not applicable to a tangible product that a store sells.  The question I'm raising is about piracy vs theft.