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Poll
Question: Do you think Zimmerman is
Guilty   -5 (25%)
Not Guilty   -2 (10%)
Self Defense   -1 (5%)
You don't know enough to decide   -12 (60%)
Total Voters: 17

Author Topic: Trayvon Martin case  (Read 148855 times)
CF DolFan
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« Reply #195 on: April 04, 2012, 05:36:58 pm »

Spider ... If we don't know, and I agree that we don't, why do you always assume Martin to the innocent side while assuming Zimmerman to the guilty side? My impression of the two based on my experiences with people. I really do not know how much is true nor do I really care as it doesn't effect the outcome of right and wrong in the shooting.

Martin ... street kid who has seen his fair share of trouble and fights. Suspended three times. Drugs, burglary tools and womens jewelry. Ganster texting and wardrobe supports this theory.

Zimmerman ... overzealous wannabe cop who probably got beat up in school. If not beat up proably picked on quite a bit which reinforces his need to be a ploice officer or authority.

In any hand to hand fight I would pick Martin all day long regardless of if he weighed 100 lbs less. I also don't see Martin screaming for help but I would expect Zimmerman to freak out when confronted with violence. Maybe even shooting someone before he needed to just basd on his outrageous fear.

That's the thing about today. In my day we fought and moved on win or lose. Today people get shot for accidently cutting others off. You never know what is going on in someone elses head.
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Phishfan
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« Reply #196 on: April 04, 2012, 06:04:17 pm »

What we DO know is that Zimmerman had a substantial weight advantage. 

And we aren't even sure of that since we don't know Zimmerman's weight. Some reporting has them within 20 pounds which is nowhere near substantial in a street fight.
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badger6
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« Reply #197 on: April 04, 2012, 06:24:20 pm »

And we aren't even sure of that since we don't know Zimmerman's weight. Some reporting has them within 20 pounds which is nowhere near substantial in a street fight.

Nor did Zimmerman know Trayvon's age, weight, experience, what he was doing, or if he had a weapon. Nor did Trayvon know what Zimmerman wanted or if he was dangerous. I guess for a good portion of the population it's easier to pull the race card instead of using common sense.
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Spider-Dan
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« Reply #198 on: April 04, 2012, 06:54:57 pm »

Spider ... If we don't know, and I agree that we don't, why do you always assume Martin to the innocent side while assuming Zimmerman to the guilty side?
That's a good question.  "Innocent" and "guilty" of what?

Martin had a legitimate reason to be in that area, a legitimate explanation for where he was going and where he came from.  He was unarmed and had no questionable/ill-gotten items of property on his person.  This rather significantly restricts the things he could have been "guilty" of.

Could he have been guilty of an unprovoked assault on Zimmerman?  I suppose, but there's even less evidence to support that theory (specifically: a motive) than there is to support the theory that Zimmerman assaulted Martin.

Quote
In any hand to hand fight I would pick Martin all day long regardless of if he weighed 100 lbs less. I also don't see Martin screaming for help but I would expect Zimmerman to freak out when confronted with violence.
It has been established that it was not Zimmerman screaming for help on the tapes (link and more link).  Gangster stereotypes aside, how does this affect your opinion of Martin?
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Pats2006
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« Reply #199 on: April 04, 2012, 07:10:40 pm »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&NR=1&v=8amLdrMTEJE

^^Prime example

I cant believe you guys are still trying to say that size matters..  I have seen smaller guys beat up on much bigger dudes in my life time.
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Spider-Dan
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« Reply #200 on: April 04, 2012, 07:21:08 pm »

So then, a woman vs. a man is a completely fair and reasonable fight, because size doesn't matter?  Still waiting for a response on this.

Stop citing exceptions and claiming them as the rule.  When David defeats Goliath, it is an epic triumph of legend; when Goliath beats David, it is a boring example of business-as-usual.

You guys are reaching, hard.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2012, 07:23:04 pm by Spider-Dan » Logged

Pats2006
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« Reply #201 on: April 04, 2012, 07:41:10 pm »

So then, a woman vs. a man is a completely fair and reasonable fight, because size doesn't matter?  Still waiting for a response on this.

Stop citing exceptions and claiming them as the rule.  When David defeats Goliath, it is an epic triumph of legend; when Goliath beats David, it is a boring example of business-as-usual.

You guys are reaching, hard.

Are we talking about a man vs a woman? Last time I checked we were talking about a smaller man vs a bigger man. What does a woman have to do with this case? Maybe that why you havent got a response to your question.

Size doesnt matter thats like me trying to make a case that Trayvon had the upper hand because he was taller and had the reach.. it doesnt matter..

Maine, was right you guys will argue just to argue..
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Spider-Dan
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« Reply #202 on: April 04, 2012, 08:08:50 pm »

Are we talking about a man vs a woman? Last time I checked we were talking about a smaller man vs a bigger man. What does a woman have to do with this case? Maybe that why you havent got a response to your question.
If size (and age) don't matter, why wouldn't an adult man vs. a minor girl be just as fair of a fight?

The reason why is because it does matter.  This is why weight classes exist.  This is why womens' sports are largely separated from mens'.  This is why the phrase "pick on someone your own size" exists.

If O.J. Simpson was patrolling this neighborhood and saw a "suspicious" unarmed Snooki walking around, according to the "size doesn't matter" crowd, he could credibly claim that she ambushed him and, as a deadly threat to his person, he was justified in shooting her.  Without even being arrested.

Remember, you aren't saying "Martin's longer reach made up for it" or "Zimmerman was mostly just chubby."  No, no... you are saying that size does not matter.  That is your argument.  So stick to it.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2012, 08:13:03 pm by Spider-Dan » Logged

bsmooth
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« Reply #203 on: April 05, 2012, 02:13:10 am »

Are we talking about a man vs a woman? Last time I checked we were talking about a smaller man vs a bigger man. What does a woman have to do with this case? Maybe that why you havent got a response to your question.

Size doesnt matter thats like me trying to make a case that Trayvon had the upper hand because he was taller and had the reach.. it doesnt matter..

Maine, was right you guys will argue just to argue..

No he is making a point. For conditioned athletes, there is a breakdown of classes for a reason. This does not mean a smaller person with the same skill set as a bigger person cannot win, but even at higher levels it is not a guarantee. This becomes more obvious as you move down the scale to less athletic and trained people to the average person.
Have we all see cases where a normal small person beat a normal larger person. But this is not the accepted norm or standard in society. If given a chance to bet on two normal, untrained combatants, the average person will usually lay their money on the bigger combatant. Why? Because of the maxim in boxing, the heavyweights always have a punchers chance due to natural power that larger people tend to have over smaller people.
It is safe to assume neither Zimmerman nor Martin had the level of training as someone like Maine, that could easily overcome natural advantages such as height, weight, reach, etc..
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Spider-Dan
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« Reply #204 on: April 05, 2012, 03:57:50 am »

Let me also add this point:

If, as it appears, it is verified that it was Martin and not Zimmerman that was yelling for help, Zimmerman should be indicted on that alone.

Is it even possible to spin shooting a kid that's screaming for help as "self-defense"?
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bsmooth
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« Reply #205 on: April 05, 2012, 04:22:34 am »

Let me also add this point:

If, as it appears, it is verified that it was Martin and not Zimmerman that was yelling for help, Zimmerman should be indicted on that alone.

Is it even possible to spin shooting a kid that's screaming for help as "self-defense"?

We still do not know how things went from exchanging words to Martin on top of Zimmerman as the witness reports. That is the gap that will probably never be fully filled in.
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Phishfan
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« Reply #206 on: April 05, 2012, 09:08:37 am »

So then, a woman vs. a man is a completely fair and reasonable fight, because size doesn't matter?  Still waiting for a response on this.

Stop citing exceptions and claiming them as the rule.  When David defeats Goliath, it is an epic triumph of legend; when Goliath beats David, it is a boring example of business-as-usual.

You guys are reaching, hard.

Stop throwing out hypotheticals that have nothing to do with the actual case. You do this quite a bit. A woman versus man has nothing to do with this. Your argument is moot anyway as it is fact that Matin had indeed knocked Zimmerman down and had indeed injured him in the face and back of the head.
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el diablo
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« Reply #207 on: April 05, 2012, 12:25:29 pm »

Actually, the only fact is that Zimmerman shot an unarmed kid. He admitted that. There are conflicting witness accounts as to who was on top of who. The idea that Martin ran away, doubled back, only to assail Zimmerman without cause is absurd. Martin ran away, hence this potential "threat" is no longer a threat. What we don't know, is how Zimmerman caught up to Martin. The screams for "Help" were proven not to be Zimmerman's. There were 4 screams. Which suggests Zimmerman already had his gun out and was aiming at martin. So, if anyone can explain how that qualifies as self-defense, I'm all ears. Actually  in this case, all eyes. If you have time to aim, you have time to think.
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Phishfan
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« Reply #208 on: April 05, 2012, 12:49:35 pm »

Actually, the only fact is that Zimmerman shot an unarmed kid. He admitted that. There are conflicting witness accounts as to who was on top of who. The idea that Martin ran away, doubled back, only to assail Zimmerman without cause is absurd. 

Yea, it is almost as absurd as thinking Zimmermand must have busted his own head open after assailing Martin from the top position. Eyewitness accounts typically need to be taken with a grain of salt. A psychology professor showed me just how bad a group can be by conducting an experiment one time in class. He started a movie which was designed to test our ability to observe and recall. None of the class knew the scene we were watching was actually going to test our abilities as eyewitnesses. Most of the students could not correctly identify clothing colors, hair colors, what someone was carrying in their hand, etc.
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Garrett
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« Reply #209 on: April 05, 2012, 02:06:46 pm »

What I don't understand, is how is it relevant which one of the guys was screaming for help?

Say.. Zimmerman attacked the kid, and then the kid is screaming for help.

Or.... The Martin kid is beating the crap out of Zimmerman, and then Zimmerman pulls the gun. Then the Martin kid starts screaming for help.

  I don't claim to know what happened at all. But whomever was screaming for help is meaningless.
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