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Poll
Question: Do you think Zimmerman is
Guilty   -5 (25%)
Not Guilty   -2 (10%)
Self Defense   -1 (5%)
You don't know enough to decide   -12 (60%)
Total Voters: 17

Author Topic: Trayvon Martin case  (Read 149034 times)
el diablo
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« Reply #210 on: April 05, 2012, 03:39:23 pm »

Yea, it is almost as absurd as thinking Zimmermand must have busted his own head open after assailing Martin from the top position. Eyewitness accounts typically need to be taken with a grain of salt. A psychology professor showed me just how bad a group can be by conducting an experiment one time in class. He started a movie which was designed to test our ability to observe and recall. None of the class knew the scene we were watching was actually going to test our abilities as eyewitnesses. Most of the students could not correctly identify clothing colors, hair colors, what someone was carrying in their hand, etc.

Point taken about the eyewitnesses.
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bsmooth
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« Reply #211 on: April 05, 2012, 05:05:03 pm »

Yea, it is almost as absurd as thinking Zimmermand must have busted his own head open after assailing Martin from the top position. Eyewitness accounts typically need to be taken with a grain of salt. A psychology professor showed me just how bad a group can be by conducting an experiment one time in class. He started a movie which was designed to test our ability to observe and recall. None of the class knew the scene we were watching was actually going to test our abilities as eyewitnesses. Most of the students could not correctly identify clothing colors, hair colors, what someone was carrying in their hand, etc.

None of which answers the huge underlying question. Who or how did the fight actually start? Was it verbal? Did Zimmerman try and detain Martin? Did Martin see Zimmerman's gun and freak out? So many questions.
As I said before, this is probably the most important fact, and all we have is the word of the shooter that he did nothing to start the fight that led to the shooting.
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Spider-Dan
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« Reply #212 on: April 05, 2012, 07:33:02 pm »

Stop throwing out hypotheticals that have nothing to do with the actual case. You do this quite a bit. A woman versus man has nothing to do with this.
You (and others) are claiming that size and age are irrelevant factors.
I submit that you do not truly believe this, and are just making that claim because it is convenient in this case.
As evidence, I give the example of a minor female in Martin's place.  If size and age really don't matter, then how would that be any different?

The fact that every one of you steadfastly refuses to say "it would be no different" implies that in that situation, you would indeed consider size and/or age to be a factor.  So why then, but not now?

It is a hypothetical example designed to point out the error in your logic.

Eyewitness accounts typically need to be taken with a grain of salt.
...yet Zimmerman's account, which has far more potential for bias than any eyewitness, should be taken at face value?
« Last Edit: April 05, 2012, 07:38:00 pm by Spider-Dan » Logged

Spider-Dan
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« Reply #213 on: April 05, 2012, 07:43:53 pm »

What I don't understand, is how is it relevant which one of the guys was screaming for help?

Say.. Zimmerman attacked the kid, and then the kid is screaming for help.

Or.... The Martin kid is beating the crap out of Zimmerman, and then Zimmerman pulls the gun. Then the Martin kid starts screaming for help.
It is reasonable to assume that if someone is repeatedly screaming for help, they have (at the very least) been subdued, and certainly no longer represent a deadly threat.

Of course, you can claim that Martin was screaming for help as he ambushed Zimmerman and was repeatedly smashing his head into the concrete (according to Zimmerman, of course).  I would suggest that that is not a reasonable claim, but I guess if you can believe that Martin ran away from Zimmerman only to immediately turn around and ambush him, I supposed you can also believe that Martin was screaming for help as he was doing so.

I do find it interesting that prior to the evidence showing that it was NOT Zimmerman crying for help, no one (not even the pro-Martin crowd) suggested that Zimmerman was screaming for help as he was manhandling Martin.  Because such a proposition is laughably absurd.
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badger6
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« Reply #214 on: April 05, 2012, 08:54:19 pm »

I would suggest that that is not a reasonable claim, but I guess if you can believe that Martin ran away from Zimmerman only to immediately turn around and ambush him, I supposed you can also believe that Martin was screaming for help as he was doing so.

I suppose you also believe that a 250 lb much older man can catch a 140 lb young man when that young man was running away from him ? If Trayvon didn't approach Zimmerman, how did Zimmerman catch him ? Size would matter more on that issue than anything else. Not to mention that I think that I read that the only physical marks on Trayvon was the gunshot wound. It seems from Police, eyewitness, and enhanced video that Zimmerman did indeed have injuries.
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Spider-Dan
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« Reply #215 on: April 05, 2012, 09:15:39 pm »

I suppose you also believe that a 250 lb much older man can catch a 140 lb young man when that young man was running away from him ?
According to the map Dave posted (and the 911 call), Martin ran away from Zimmerman when he was still in his vehicle.  Zimmerman then purportedly circled around and cut Martin off (obstructing his way home).  So once Zimmerman confronted Martin on foot, Martin would have had to run in the opposite direction of his home to get away.  I think at that point, Martin challenged Zimmerman as to why he was following him (which is what the girlfriend on the phone reported).

Quote
Not to mention that I think that I read that the only physical marks on Trayvon was the gunshot wound. It seems from Police, eyewitness, and enhanced video that Zimmerman did indeed have injuries.
I'm not disputing the claim that Zimmerman may have been injured.  I do think he greatly exaggerated the nature of said injuries; his shirt is remarkably clean for someone with a "broken, bloodied nose", and if he had a huge gash on his head, I'd think that the medic on the scene would have applied some sort of bandage (but I'm not a medical professional).

In any case, a law enforcement official has stated that based on the time the police arrived on scene, the distance to the police station, and the time of the surveillance camera, that whatever medical attention Zimmerman received took no more than 8 minutes, total (link).  That sounds more to me like someone who was unexpectedly punched and knocked down (banging his head on the ground during the fall), not someone who "repeatedly had his head smashed into the concrete".
« Last Edit: April 05, 2012, 09:47:11 pm by Spider-Dan » Logged

Phishfan
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« Reply #216 on: April 06, 2012, 09:36:27 am »

You (and others) are claiming that size and age are irrelevant factors.
I submit that you do not truly believe this, and are just making that claim because it is convenient in this case.

I can't tell if you just don't know the difference or you expect that I won't. I encourage you to look through this thread and cite one example where I said the words size or age does not matter. What you will find instead is me arguing that your stated size differences are exaggerated as well as stating a fight without rules can equal a size difference.

Of course size is a contributing factor but it is not the sole determiner of a fight.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2012, 10:05:33 am by Phishfan » Logged
Spider-Dan
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« Reply #217 on: April 06, 2012, 12:06:05 pm »

If you disagree with the others who are literally saying, "size doesn't matter," that's fine.

I'm not saying that Zimmerman's weight advantage automatically means he was ragdolling Martin before he shot him.  I'm saying that it's yet another factor that damages the credibility on his claim that an unarmed Martin represented a deadly threat.

Do I believe that Martin was repeatedly bashing Zimmerman's head into the ground?  No.  Zimmerman already lied about calling for help, and the account of the incident from his camp keeps changing (link).
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Phishfan
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« Reply #218 on: April 09, 2012, 02:21:39 pm »

The special prosecutor has decided against taking this to the grand jury which was scheduled to meet tomorrow. I wonder is she is plannign to bring charges or drop this now?
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suck for luck
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« Reply #219 on: April 11, 2012, 01:09:36 pm »

Hey CF, what's the mood in the town there? Seemed like things had calmed down but then there were some reports that make it sound like tensions are maybe rising.
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Dave Gray
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« Reply #220 on: April 11, 2012, 01:26:57 pm »

I was surprised that his lawyers spoke out.  I found it kind of unprofessional.  I figured that if they weren't going to represent him (for any reason), that it would be better to just say that they were no longer working together and left it at that.

I would be weary of later hiring that attorney for that reason.  I would want my matters private, even if I am no longer a client.
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Phishfan
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« Reply #221 on: April 11, 2012, 02:59:06 pm »

Hey CF, what's the mood in the town there? Seemed like things had calmed down but then there were some reports that make it sound like tensions are maybe rising.

There were more protesters who marched from Daytona in town and the police shut down their offices because of them, but it looked really peaceful to me. There has been some high tension stuff (cop car shot up) but if you know Sanford there really isn't anything shocking in that anyway.

Side note, I found out yesterday that I had actually met George Zimmerman a few times. I was talking to my ex and discovered that when we were together she worked with George. I had been to the office a couple times for lunch and even rode in a limo over to Tampa with their office people for their Christmas party. I can't say that anything about him or the experience sticks out in my mind that would allow me to have any insight to provide. I just thought you guys might be interested to hear that.
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Dave Gray
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« Reply #222 on: April 11, 2012, 04:48:03 pm »

Zimmerman is to be arrested.  Charges being announced at 6 PM.

I think this is for the best.  I think that there are a lot of things wrong, but we need the appropriate channels to figure it all out.  Zimmerman needs to plea his case to a judge.  If he's acquitted, I'll be OK with that.  I think the law is totally screwed up and needs to be revisited.

But I also don't like a situation where most people agree that something is wrong, there's a growing mob mentality, and this guy is not only walking free, but also free to leave the country with no tabs on him while people decide.

So, I think that this should calm down a lot of the fight.  There will be some people that will lose their shit if he's acquitted, as well as those that will lose their shit if he goes to jail.  I will not be one of them.
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bsmooth
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« Reply #223 on: April 11, 2012, 05:03:00 pm »

On the eve of his facing charges, this is a strange story of events from his former attorneys.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702303815404577336143953995600.html?mod=WSJ_WSJ_US_News_5
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Spider-Dan
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« Reply #224 on: April 11, 2012, 05:31:22 pm »

Again, just like O.J., Casey Anthony, whoever else... if he's acquitted because of that ridiculous law, then (after the verdict) rail against the law but leave Zimmerman in peace.

But the main point of outrage has been the lack of an arrest.  There was an excellent blog post that summed this point up, in response to the many conservative "counterexamples" of black-on-black or black-on-white crime that didn't become national stories (specifically, some from National Review's Rich Lowry):

Quote
You know what's one huge difference is between the Zimmerman killing and every killing Lowry lists?

It's simple: In every case Lowry lists, everyone in America acknowledges that a crime has been committed. No one questions the notion that these killers should be arrested and tried. No one thinks the law protects the killers -- no one thinks the law ought to.

That's the real force behind this outcry.  There's an element of racial profiling and an element of you-don't-belong-here, but those details don't make this a national story.  It became a national story because 2 weeks after Martin's death, Zimmerman had not even been arrested and it didn't appear that law enforcement cared too much about it.
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