Stuff you've done 180 degrees,flip flopped on?

[Dave Gray]

Capitol Punishment. At one time I strongly opposed it, now I support it. 

Interesting. Expand on this.

How do your current positions conflict with the arguments you used to make?

My main opposition to the death penalty is a matter of fairness, as well as wanting a limited government, unable to execute its own citizens on a matter of principle.  Cost, too.

[Cathal]

^^^ That sort of questioning can only lead to people breaking out the popcorn. 

[Dave Gray]

I'm not really interested in debating it.  We've done that before.  ...just wondering what led to the change in position and more importantly, how he's resolved his previous opposition.

[MyGodWearsAHoodie]

Interesting. Expand on this.

How do your current positions conflict with the arguments you used to make?

My main opposition to the death penalty is a matter of fairness, as well as wanting a limited government, unable to execute its own citizens on a matter of principle.  Cost, too.

It was not a gradual position change based on logic or principal, it was based on emotion, fear, anger, and vengence.

My opinion changed the night the Burger King I was working at was robbed.  

And while my view has softened (I am no longer promoting that the death penality be expanded to included armed robbery) I still feel it has a place in society.  Although severely flawed as applied in most states today.  

[Dave Gray]

^ I see.

I actually wrote (and then deleted) that the only arguments I see for the death penalty are based on emotion, specifically revenge.  I deleted it because I didn't want to color the conversation unfairly before it began.

[MyGodWearsAHoodie]

that the only arguments I see for the death penalty are based on emotion, specifically revenge. 

Not entirely true.  There is an argument of deterence. 

[Pappy13]

Shhhh....don't tell anyone.

Gaming isn't a dirty word anymore for women. I know plenty of women that play either along with their husbands/significant other or with others online. WoW and some other games are very social which fits in well with what women enjoy for entertainment value.

[el diablo]

I also flipped on capital punishment. As a teen, I supported it. Then, I got older and realized how it is applied. Especially in Florida. I agree that it does have a place in society. Then you listen to "Ride The Lightning" by Metallica. And you put yourself into a different perspective. What if you are convicted of a murder that you didn't commit? The supreme court has ruled that even if new DNA evidence is revealed, that you do NOT have the right to a new trial. In the Troy Davis case, you have witnesses who retract their stories. And they still execute you. I can't be in favor of a form of punishment that doesn't allow for fairness even after a conviction. Let alone the trial itself.

On a lighter note: other flips were Seinfeld and the Xbox.
Seinfeld, because I didn't get into until the last two seasons. From that point, I can't get enough.
Xbox, because I had the original PlayStation. I couldn't imagine a better system with a more complicated controller. Boy, was I wrong.

[EKnight]

Not entirely true.  There is an argument of deterence. 

It doesn't deter anyone. The latest data shows average murder rate for the 38 states with capital punishment was 5.22 murders per 100,000 people. The average murder rate for the 13 states (including the District of Columbia) without capital punishment was 5.96. I hardly think that qualifies as a deterent. A few other stats of note:

Studies in Oklahoma and California failed to find that capital punishment had a deterrent effect on violent crime and, in fact, found a significant increase in stranger killings and homicide rates after the death penalty had been reinstated. (William Bailey, “Deterrence, Brutalization, and the Death Penalty,” Criminology, 1998; Ernie Thompson, “Effects of an Execution on Homicides in California.” Homicide Studies, 1999)
 
The murder rate in Canada has dropped by 27% since the death penalty was abolished in that country in 1976. (Amnesty International)
 
A Texas study determined in 1999 that there was no relation between the number of executions and murder rates in general. (Victoria Brewer, Robert Wrinkle, John Sorenson and James Marquart)
 
A New York Times survey demonstrated that the homicide rate in states with capital punishment have been 48% to 101% higher than those without the death penalty. (Raymond Bonner and Ford Fessenden, “Absence of Executions,” New York Times, September 22, 2000)
 
The five countries with the highest homicide rates that do not impose the death penalty average 21.6 murders per 100,000 people. The five countries with the highest homicide rate that do impose the death penalty average 41.6 murders for every 100,000 people. (United Nations Development Program)

There doesn't seem to be any link that it deters anyone from commiting murder. -EK

[Dave Gray]

^ I don't believe it is a legitmate deterrent either, but your stat above doesn't really prove that.  It could very well be correlation.

For example, places that have high crime rates are more likely to continue supporting legislation to execute.  ...just a logical fallacy, though I agree with your larger point.

[MyGodWearsAHoodie]

There doesn't seem to be any link that it deters anyone from commiting murder. -EK

I didn't say there was a strong argument.  Just that there is an argument.  As murders are typically either a crime of passion (so no thought of the consequences) or done by folks who expect to get away with the crime (once again no thought of punishment) it is not a great deterant.  It can deter a very small percent of criminals.

However, during the period when there was a national moriturm on the death penality the murder rate did increase signficantly. 

It is also very affective at preventing recidism. 

Here is a stat to chew on: 

# of crime committed by those who where put to death after being put to death : 0

That is right zero, not a single one.  OTOH, criminals who where not put to death or while waiting to be put to death have committed crimes against guards, other immates and in many cases escaped or were paroled and committed crimes against the general public. 

Once you put a person to death, you no longer have to worry about them committing another crime. 

[EKnight]

I didn't say there was a strong argument.  Just that there is an argument.  As murders are typically either a crime of passion (so no thought of the consequences) or done by folks who expect to get away with the crime (once again no thought of punishment) it is not a great deterant.  It can deter a very small percent of criminals.

However, during the period when there was a national moriturm on the death penality the murder rate did increase signficantly. 
It is also very affective at preventing recidism. 

Here is a stat to chew on: 

# of crime committed by those who where put to death after being put to death : 0

That is right zero, not a single one.  OTOH, criminals who where not put to death or while waiting to be put to death have committed crimes against guards, other immates and in many cases escaped or were paroled and committed crimes against the general public. 

Once you put a person to death, you no longer have to worry about them committing another crime. 

I hear what you're saying, but that's the ultimate in extremist thinking, and whether or not they commit further crimes, doesn't mean that they were deterred by the death penalty. At all. All of the modern data- that is, since 1976- shows no deterrent effect. If there were such an effect, how do you account for Canada's results? 27% decrease since capital punishment was made illegal. I'll revise my statement to say- I'm not saying there's no effect at all, but I believe it is so minimal, it can't really be a reason to keep capital punishment. -EK

[Dave Gray]

If there were such an effect, how do you account for Canada's results? 27% decrease since capital punishment was made illegal.

Again, I agree with your position, but your stats to get you there still don't fit.

Things like murder rate are determined by a whole host of things -- economic conditions among them, as well as general attitude of the population.  If you were to observe the same 1:1 results between many countries, where other variables could be discounted, I would trust this statistic.  I believe it's much more likely they those are correlated statistics, not causal.

I agree that capital punnishment is not a deterrent.  The reason I say that is that I don't see anyone thinking "should I commit this crime?   I mean, it's not worth it to risk my life over, but I'll risk 30 years in prison."  I think that the majority of murders either don't take getting caught into consideration or they are emotional or compulsion-based, where consequences simply do not matter.

[MyGodWearsAHoodie]

I hear what you're saying, but that's the ultimate in extremist thinking, and whether or not they commit further crimes, doesn't mean that they were deterred by the death penalty.

This true.  Two different issues -- deterance and preventing recitism. 

And while extreme -- highly effective.  Chopping off someones hand for the crime of theft is extreme -- but highly effective.  Castration for rapists is extreme but highly effective in preventing repeat offenses. 

[EKnight]

Dave- help me out here- I SWEAR I'm not being purposefully dense, but the "whole host of things" you mention is the same between states with or without the death penalty (I concur that Canada as an example may have too many variables), and homicide rates are the same in either case. What am I missing? -EK