Joe Pa emails

[Landshark]

The report by Louis Freeh was released today.  Totally slammed Joe Paterno as well as the former AD and university President.

http://i.usatoday.net/news/nation/2012-07-12-penn-state-freeh-report.pdf

[bsmooth]

The report by Louis Freeh was released today.  Totally slammed Joe Paterno as well as the former AD and university President.

http://i.usatoday.net/news/nation/2012-07-12-penn-state-freeh-report.pdf

Death penalty for the program? Was this worse than what SMU did?

[Landshark]

Death penalty for the program? Was this worse than what SMU did?

This was a hell of a lot worse and a lot of people took to the airwaves today calling for the same thing.  But from what I heard on the radio from some experts, the NCAA is probably not going to get involved.  The people involved in these heinous actions will face civil and criminal repercussions through our justice system, as they should.  However, NCAA shutting down the program would hurt no one but the players and the student body, none of which had anything to do with these heinous actions.

[CF DolFan]

This was a hell of a lot worse and a lot of people took to the airwaves today calling for the same thing.  But from what I heard on the radio from some experts, the NCAA is probably not going to get involved.  The people involved in these heinous actions will face civil and criminal repercussions through our justice system, as they should.  However, NCAA shutting down the program would hurt no one but the players and the student body, none of which had anything to do with these heinous actions.

I disagree. The money that football brings in to that college is one of the big underlying reasons it was covered up. I'm not saying they should kill it, although I'm not opposed to it either, but if they are trying to hold accountable the very reasons that it was covered then money will be at the top of the list. The 60 or so individual players who won't get to play each year for PSU and the student body not having someone to root for is pretty minimal fallout IMO. 

I said before that the only good thing to come from this will be that it will make it easier for the next person/group to come forward and report incidents or people earlier. If the cost of not coming forward is losing your football program (or whatever else is important) no matter who you are then it almost forces people to be more forthright and come forward.

Regardless of who is or isn't still there how would you like to go down in history as the person who cost PSU their storied program because you covered for someone in your program?

[BigDaddyFin]

This is miles worse than what happened at SMU.  Everybody bitched because SMU bought their players this that and the other thing.  All that was about was money. 

This is miles worse than getting caught with a younger woman on your motorcycle who isn't your wife *cough* bobbypetrinoassholeoftheplane t *cough*

This is far worse than going to a strip club or whatever got the guy at Alabama fired.

The PSU scandal is not about money (at least not at the heart of it).  This is about a series of criminal acts far worse than taking money or selling things in exchange for favors.  This is about raping innocent boys and then turning around and covering it up.  I could care less what the University has to say or what reports they come out with now that the only other people who know what happened internally are in jail (Sandusky) or dead (Paterno). 

If the NCAA had any balls they'd give Penn State the death penalty.

[Spider-Dan]

I have a question:

Is fixing games worse than killing another person?

Because there are players in the NFL who have been convicted of killing another human being, yet if those same players had instead been found to throw just one game, they would be immediately banned for life.

You need to separate competitive violations from societal violations.  Is raping a woman worse than a ref fixing a game, from the standpoint of human decency and society as a whole?  Yes.  But a ref fixing a game could potentially destroy the entire league.  So let's keep things in perspective.

The NCAA does not need to be concerned with enforcing the laws of the land.  We have a criminal justice system for that.  The NCAA needs to be concerned about protecting the integrity of the sport, and Sandusky's criminal actions had no direct impact whatsoever on that.

SMU's actions directly impacted the integrity of college football as a sport for amateur student-athletes, and essentially turned the NCAA into a pay-for-play highest-bidder-wins pro league.  The crimes that Sandusky committed did not have any such impact on the sport.

[masterfins]

^^^ Agree

[bsmooth]

I have a question:

Is fixing games worse than killing another person?

Because there are players in the NFL who have been convicted of killing another human being, yet if those same players had instead been found to throw just one game, they would be immediately banned for life.

You need to separate competitive violations from societal violations.  Is raping a woman worse than a ref fixing a game, from the standpoint of human decency and society as a whole?  Yes.  But a ref fixing a game could potentially destroy the entire league.  So let's keep things in perspective.

The NCAA does not need to be concerned with enforcing the laws of the land.  We have a criminal justice system for that.  The NCAA needs to be concerned about protecting the integrity of the sport, and Sandusky's criminal actions had no direct impact whatsoever on that.

SMU's actions directly impacted the integrity of college football as a sport for amateur student-athletes, and essentially turned the NCAA into a pay-for-play highest-bidder-wins pro league.  The crimes that Sandusky committed did not have any such impact on the sport.

But the cover-up to protect the program shows a lack of institutional control that taints the university, the program, the sport, and the NCAA. Is it more important to protect a sport or people?

[Spider-Dan]

The "lack of institutitional control" didn't actually cause any problems with the sport.  Could it have?  Sure, but there is no evidence to that effect.

What it did cause problems with was people following the law.  The PSU brass swept this under the rug, but it is no more an NCAA concern than if a really popular or well-respected professor convinced the brass to sweep a similar situation under the rug.

[MyGodWearsAHoodie]

I guess the question boils down to how much oversight you expect and how much responsiblity the controling board has to maintain not only the intergrity of the sport but the image of the sport.

To draw a comparison to the NFL:

The punishments in Bountygate, Jets tripping incident, etc, went to the intergrity of the sport.  And is similiar to the SMU incident.

OTOH, the punishments handed out b/c of Big Ben's bathroom rape, Pacman, Stalworth's DUI, M. Vick, etc, went to the image of the sport. And are similiar to the Penn incident.

If you think that Godell should be limiting himself to just the first group and not bothering with those players whose conduct is "off-field" then you probably think that the NCCA has no place punishing Penn.

However, if think that the NFL has a place in protecting image of the sport as being one that expects its employees to obey societies' laws, then you support the NCCA cracking down on Penn.
If you

[Spider-Dan]

The difference is that the NFL's relationship to players is (roughly) that of an employer, while the NCAA's relationship is (roughly) that of a regulatory body.

While the NFL does have a clear business interest in preventing players from making the league look bad, the NCAA cannot really claim the same mantle; the NFL is a corporation in the business of making profit, while the NCAA is (ostensibly) an objective regulatory body there to protect the integrity of the sport.  So while the NFL has wide latitude (collectively bargained, mind you) to punish any employee that engages in any kind of conduct that reflects poorly on the league, the NCAA really only has authority to do so if said conduct actually impacts the sport.

[MyGodWearsAHoodie]

I get what you say as regrading the NCAA and players vs NFL and players.

And would say that there is some difference between the relationship between the NCAA and a college athlete vs. te NFL and a pro athlete.

However, I would say that difference shrinks to almost none when comparing the relationship between a college and the NCAA vs a team and the NFL or a NFL coach's relationship to the NFL vs a college coach's relationhip to the NCAA.

If Greg Williams had been raping little boys in the Saints lockerroom while, Sean Payton and George Loomis covered up for him do you think the Saints would be punished?

NCAA has a responiblity to protect its image, and it also has reponsiblity to protected the 11 year old boy balls.  Failing to do anything would certainly be irresponible on both counts.

[Spider-Dan]

However, I would say that difference shrinks to almost none when comparing the relationship between a college and the NCAA vs a team and the NFL or a NFL coach's relationship to the NFL vs a college coach's relationhip to the NCAA.

If Greg Williams had been raping little boys in the Saints lockerroom while, Sean Payton and George Loomis covered up for him do you think the Saints would be punished?

Well, to be fair, you should replace "Gregg Williams" with "someone who is not employed by the Saints."  But to answer your question, if Sean Payton and George Loomis had both been fired by the Saints for their involvement, then no, I don't think the NFL would levy additional punishment against them.

If Jim Mora knew about Vick's dogfighting and tried to help cover it up, and the Falcons fired him for it, do you think the Falcons would have lost draft picks?

NCAA has a responiblity to protect its image, and it also has reponsiblity to protected the 11 year old boy balls.

What?

[CF DolFan]

Even after they had known about his issues with boys and had given him money for his "retirement"  they continued to allow him full access to the NCAA program thus allowing him to use it (the NCAA program) as a pedophlia dating tool. They knew about it as early as 1998 and allowed him access unitl 2011.

From the Freeh report ...

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I will steal a quote from something I read earlier as I think it nails it ...

Sandusky's connection and access to the program -- to university football facilities, games, exclusive seating at Beaver Stadium, youth clinics, etc -- played an undeniable role in his predatory pedophilia. That affiliation with the program and its trappings “enabled him to attract his victims” and destroy the childhoods of so many young people.

If that isn't cause for suspending a college football program, nothing is, ever has been, or ever will be.

[Spider-Dan]

When you say that "they" knew about his issues and continued to allow him access to the program, you realize that "they" consists of people who have already been fired for this offense, right?

I mean, at the end of the day, any further blame to be placed is going to be much higher up than just the football program.  So if you want to say that Penn State needs to be punished for the lack of oversight by the Board of Trustees, why is it only the football program that needs to be shuttered?  Why not close down the entirety of Penn State athletics for a year?

Hell, when you get right down to it, the Board of Trustees is responsible for the entire university, not just the athletic program.  So if a punishment needs to be meted out to teach them a lesson, why not shut down the entire school for a year?

The involved parties have received substantial disciplinary action from the school.  These were people that were not only at the top level of the football program, but the athletic department itself.  If you really think the punishment needs to be escalated further, why are you restricting it only to the football program?  At this point, the remaining football staff is no less innocent than the baseball program or the physics department.