The bell tolls for Penn State

[Pappy13]

Paterno and PSU could have walked off with "clean hands" (again, to public knowledge) and played themselves as yet another victim of Sandusky's diabolical scheming.  But for some reason, Paterno decided to keep protecting Sandusky.  There are only two reasons I can think of:

1) he didn't want to see his longtime friend go to prison, and thought that talking to him privately would stop the problem (my original guess)
2) he was scared of the '98 coverup being flipped on him (which is probably the more likely scenario)

#1 Only makes sense for Paterno, it doesn't explain PSU's reasons for doing nothing, UNLESS what Joe Paterno wants, Joe Paterno gets and that in and of itself is a problem, so even if the answer is #1, PSU still should be punished in my personal opinion.

[Spider-Dan]

Well, given that the number of people within PSU that knew about it was extremely limited, I wouldn't exactly classify 2001 as "PSU did nothing" as much as "a small insular group of people who all had personal ties to Sandusky did nothing."

But as I said, given that Paterno had an active role in '98, it's more likely that he was trying to keep '98 under wraps when he swept '01 under the rug.

[Phishfan]

Well, given that the number of people within PSU that knew about it was extremely limited, I wouldn't exactly classify 2001 as "PSU did nothing" as much as "a small insular group of people who all had personal ties to Sandusky did nothing."

I would not categorize it that way either. There were people who did not know who Sandusky was that did very little to nothing. A janitor witnessed misconduct in the showers two years prior to McQueary. He also told a supervisor and pointed out who the man (Sandusky) was to his supervisor in the parking lot. The supervisor was aware of Sandusky and warned the janitor to no go forward for fear of losing his job.

This goes all the way through the President, campus police, football staff, and janitors at Penn State. It cut a wide path through the university (maybe not so much in people but more so in different departments) and I'm just curious why none of them recognized the problem as a problem.

[MyGodWearsAHoodie]

warned the janitor to no go forward for fear of losing his job.

Bingo.  It is time to end the special treatment for criminal within the athletic departments on colleges AND set up programs the protect whisleblowers or you risk losing your athletic department.

When an employee fears losing his job for reporting sex crimes the CEO is at fault for having that type of work environement. 

[Spider-Dan]

Hoodie, in that analogy, who is the CEO?

If it's the head coach, the athletic director, or the president... well, they were all already fired.
If it's the Board of Trustees... the NCAA can't (and hasn't) done a damn thing to touch them.

So in your CEO analogy, what does eliminating scholarships correspond to?  Either the "CEO" was already fired before Penn State took action, or he is still running the joint and the NCAA can't do anything about it.

[MyGodWearsAHoodie]

Spider, it is pretty clear that in your view of punishment -- deterance of similiar behavior is not relevent. 

This is not just about spending a message to Penn State, but all colleges. Put a system in place to prevent this.

And this punishment does affect the trustees and the alumni both of which encouraged a system that promoted covering up misdeeds if reveling them would negitively affect the football program.

[Spider-Dan]

So let's suppose all of this had happened 15 years ago to Notre Dame.  Who at PSU would have been deterred by the NCAA's sanctions?

The people who participated in the coverup?  If being fired and/or prosecuted doesn't deter you, sanctions won't matter much.
The people who didn't participate in the coverup?  They didn't even know what was going on.

The best case you can make for the NCAA sanctions is that they will result in coaches having less power.  Such a claim is, to put it lightly, completely unrealistic.  You think the Alabama Board of Trustees is going to start sticking their nose into Saban's everyday business because of this?  You think Duke's AD is going to assign a watchdog to Coach K?  Please.

Had these sanctions been applied to some other school 15 years ago, it would not have changed a damn thing at Penn State.  Paterno still would have been god and no one would have dared challenge him.  These sanctions are largely punishment theater, designed to placate the talking heads (the vacating of Paterno's wins is pretty much explictly so; it accomplishes nothing but removing his name from the record books).

[Pappy13]

^^That's a pretty cynical view even for you Spider. Next you'll be saying that there's no point in putting Sandusky in jail either because it won't stop any other child molestors from doing what they are going to do. Punishment isn't just a deterrent from someone else doing the same thing, it's primarily justice to those responsible for committing the acts in the first place.

And maybe just maybe some good will come of this and that 60 million dollars will be put to good use and actually give a few kids a shot at a better life than they otherwise would have. Yeah, I know that's pie in the sky thinking. It's so much easier to be cynical and assume the worst. If it's all the same to you, I'd rather error on the side of attempting to do what's right rather than putting forth the view that nothing anybody does really matters.

That's just my opinion, I could be wrong.

[Spider-Dan]

How can the sanctions be punishment when they are not affecting ANY of the people who were actually involved in the crimes or the coverup?
How can the sanctions be a deterrent when we all know that the demigod coaches of college athletics will still be lord over their "superiors"?

Again, do you mean to tell me that this NCAA ruling means that everyone in Norman is now free to crack down on Bob Stoops?  This ruling is no sort of deterrent.  The only time any Board of Trustees will be able to rein in a demigod coach is AFTER they have committed some sort of public misconduct (see: Bobby Petrino), and after public misconduct, you don't NEED NCAA prodding to take action.  It's not like Penn State fired Paterno after these penalties were handed down.

I agree with the financial penalties, primarily because Penn State has been raising extra money off of this scandal.  And I agree with the vacating of wins, because the only thing they do is strip Paterno of his legacy.  But the scholarships and postseason penalties are just the NCAA showing off to the crowd, IMO.  The NCAA president has pointed out time and again that He Is Not A Commissioner, but for this one high-profile incident, not only does he become a commissioner, but he hands out the fastest penalty in modern history.  Quick, gotta get this scandal off of the news cycles!

edit:  I think the following question will show exactly why this is not a deterrent:

What, specifically, should the Penn State Board of Trustees have done in order to avoid falling afoul of the NCAA in the Sandusky scandal?  Please be detailed.  ("Don't allow crimes to occur" is not specific nor detailed.)

[MyGodWearsAHoodie]

So let's suppose all of this had happened 15 years ago to Notre Dame.  Who at PSU would have been deterred by the NCAA's sanctions?

The janitors boss.  (assuming of course the punishment has the desired result of having other colleges put in proactive systems to prevent this from happening on their campus by protecting whisle blowers)

[Spider-Dan]

So, do you think that the head janitor in Louisville is now going to feel completely safe and secure blowing the whistle on Rick Pitino if he catches him snorting a line off of a cheerleader's ass, because the NCAA has his back?

I'll say again: what, specifically, should the Penn State Board of Trustees have done in order to avoid falling afoul of the NCAA in the Sandusky scandal?

[Pappy13]

How can the sanctions be punishment when they are not affecting ANY of the people who were actually involved in the crimes or the coverup?

The sanctions by the NCAA were punishment against PSU and the PSU athletic program who hired the people that were involved in the crimes and/or the coverup of those crimes and created the environment in which the crimes and/or coverup were allowed to happen. Without PSU and the PSU athletic program Jerry Sandusky and Joe Paterno are nobody.

Please understand that I'm not against coaches in charge of large powerful athletic programs, I'm against coaches in charge of large powerful athletic programs that ABUSE their power. That power is a not a right, it's a priviledge that is bestowed upon them and as such they have the moral obligation to ensure the integrity of that program. Fail to do so and you will be punished severly. Not just you the person, but the program itself.

What, specifically, should the Penn State Board of Trustees have done in order to avoid falling afoul of the NCAA in the Sandusky scandal?  Please be detailed.

They should have contacted the authorities to ensure that Sandusky was brought to justice and made sure that Sandusky was no longer associated with PSU in any way, shape, form or fashion. If they didn't know the abuse was taking place, then they should have taken the proper steps to ensure that they were made aware of any abuse including overseeing Joe Paterno and PSU's security staff and ensuring they were taking all the necessary steps to ensure that any abuses by anyone within the football program or anyone that was using the football programs facilities were reported to the Board of Trustees immediately.

[MyGodWearsAHoodie]

So, do you think that the head janitor in Louisville is now going to feel completely safe and secure blowing the whistle on Rick Pitino if he catches him snorting a line off of a cheerleader's ass, because the NCAA has his back?

I'll say again: what, specifically, should the Penn State Board of Trustees have done in order to avoid falling afoul of the NCAA in the Sandusky scandal?

Wrong question.  

The correct question:

Will this ruling make it more likely that some time in the next few months the Lousiville trustees will put in place a whisleblowers policy that will make the head jaintor feel perfectly safe blowing the whisle if he catches Pitino snorting a line of coke a cheeleaders ass and that the jaintor will get fired if he covers for Pitino?  

My answer: yes, it will make it more likely that other colleges will place more oversight on the sports programs.  

[Spider-Dan]

They should have contacted the authorities to ensure that Sandusky was brought to justice and made sure that Sandusky was no longer associated with PSU in any way, shape, form or fashion. If they didn't know the abuse was taking place, then they should have taken the proper steps to ensure that they were made aware of any abuse including overseeing Joe Paterno and PSU's security staff and ensuring they were taking all the necessary steps to ensure that any abuses by anyone within the football program or anyone that was using the football programs facilities were reported to the Board of Trustees immediately.

What are the "proper steps to ensure" that the Board of Trustees is made aware of any potential misdeeds on their campus?

Keep in mind that these misdeeds WERE reported through the proper PSU authority figures.  Those authority figures chose to cover it up (and were fired for doing so).  So should Mike McQueary (and similar low-level employees) go directly to the tippy-top with any issues of concern?  Should they be required to contact the Board directly if they notice that a coach hires a questionably qualified woman that he seems to be excessively friendly with (e.g. Petrino)?  What about if they see that an athlete has a job that pays him disproportionately well for comparatively little work?  Should any and all concerns go directly through the Board, no matter how minor?  This scandal would seem to make it clear that "I followed the chain of command" is not a defense.

Then again, maybe you're only talking about criminal activity.  So should all employees be required to go directly to the police if they witness a underage athlete drinking?  What about using drugs?

In a rational world, the fact that the people who committed the wrongdoing were immediately fired and/or prosecuted would be reasonable and sufficient.  But because of the media frenzy, the NCAA felt pressure to try to flex its muscle, by levying unprecedented sanctions that will not change the culture of worship at big-time colleges at all.

[Pappy13]

In a rational world, the fact that the people who committed the wrongdoing were immediately fired and/or prosecuted would be reasonable and sufficient.  But because of the media frenzy, the NCAA felt pressure to try to flex its muscle, by levying unprecedented sanctions that will not change the culture of worship at big-time colleges at all.

I would agree if we weren't talking about a college institution. Their whole existance is to educate, influence, motivate etc the youth of this country. That's their charter. They aren't in business to make cars or build houses or something else, they are in the business of educating the young. Instead they took advantage of kids. Granted it wasn't the kids that were enrolled in their college, but it was kids that were coming to their college and using their facilities and that probably one day hoped they would be able to go to that college or perhaps another one like it. Their first priority should have been these kids. I don't know what their priorities were, but it wasn't the kids and that is unforgiveable. It's not enough to simply throw your hands up and say "Well we thought the guy was a good guy but we were wrong" and fire him and think that fixes everything. You have a moral obligation to constantly be checking that you are doing everything you can to make sure something like this doesn't happen BEFORE it happens.

What are the "proper steps to ensure" that the Board of Trustees is made aware of any potential misdeeds on their campus?

I don't know, I'm not on the board, but I know that whatever they were doing, they're going to be doing more now. That's part of the reason for the punishment, to let you know you failed and to make it clear that more is needed. Figure out what that is.

Let me give you an example. I work for the maintenance group of an airline and we are overseen by the FAA and trust me, they are damn site more picky than the NCAA is. If we let a single aircraft fly with a single bolt that has missed it's maintance schedule even if NOTHING happens, we will have millions of dollars worth of fines charged against us, we'll be asked to come up with a plan to guarantee that it doesn't happen again and we'll have to review that plan with the FAA regularly to make sure that it's working. We worry about it constantly and we have safeguards and backup safeguards in place to ensure it doesn't happen. It's not nearly enough for us to say "Well we'll fire the guy that was responsible" and that's that. And that's if NOTHING happens. If something DOES happen it will be 10 times WORSE! We are talking about the safety of the people that fly our jets afterall and that responsibility goes a LOT deeper than saying sorry. Trust me, you WANT the FAA to be that way with EVERY airline. I want the NCAA to be that way with every school.

Sometimes all it takes is a reminder of what your responsibility is for people to double their efforts in that regard. Nothing will ensure that this will never happen again, but hopefully this will be a wake up call for most of the schools at least for a little while.