Ryan Tannehill to start the season as the number 1 QB

[EKnight]

I don't follow how this makes your point clearer. It seems much more straight forward to me. If the fault of the 6-10 record was ONLY on the offense, Kansas City- with the next to worst offense in football- should not have won more games than Miami. -EK

[MikeO]

I find it interesting that Marshall was vilified for the number of drops he had in Miami, but it looks as though the current group has all of the stone hands and none of the big yardage potential that he brought. Someone from this group- even in a West coast, spread the ball around system- needs to step up. -EK

Marshall was vilified for constantly being arrested, having a contract he never lived up to, dropping a ton of balls, punching teammates in the lockeroom and throwing coaches and teammates under the bus in the press. It was more than just drops.

Whether another WR "steps up" this year has NOTHING AT ALL to do with Brandon Marshall and why he was let go.

[MikeO]

In the NFL the less points you give up the better defense you are. That's all that matters. POINTS ALLOWED! Nobody cares about total defensive rankings which accounts for a bunch of things that mean little to the big picture. It's POINTS SCORED and POINTS ALLOWED!  Only two team stats that count for offense and defense.  I constantly read "why couldn't the Fins defense hold teams to FG's instead of TD's".......DUH, THEY DID!!! Hence only 5 teams gave up fewer points in the entire league. More times than not the Fins defense in 2011  forced teams into FG's instead of TD's! That's how you become 6th ranked in scoring defense! That's the sign of a very good defense.

2012 may be a very different story but in 2011 its not even debatable. The offense was miserable most weeks and was the reason the team lost. If the offense was so damn good how come an entire new coaching staff came in and cleaned house (Moore, Marshall, Vernon, Columbo, Hillard...all starters that are gone). And on defense except JT (who was a backup) retiring and Langford who was nice but nothing too special, damn near the entire unit came back pretty much in tact. Tells you ALL you need to know right there.

[EKnight]

Then explain once and for all how multiple teams who scored LESS on offense or gave up MORE points on defense had better records. There's no portion of a 6-10 team- offense, defense, or special teams- that should be given the praise you keep giving the D ("very very good"). But since you pointed out how they basically have the same team this year, how do you account for the crap product the starters have shown so far this preseason? Injuries to the front line has nothing to do with the secondary giving up massive yards by poor coverage and penalty alike. So if the same guys are all there, why does this very very good defense suddenly suck so bad? Cam Newton hung 17 on Miami in the first quarter and he never ran the ball. What are you going to say when the D still can't cover anyone and they give up a bunch of leads again this year and the team is still under .500? Same guys. They're very very good. It's completely coincidental that the team lost 10 games- which is the REAL stat that matters, wins and losses, not how much you score or hold other teams to. -EK

[MikeO]

1) What Cam Newton did was in a PRESEASON game
2) It was also in 2012 not relevant to this debate
3) I have stated numerous times I judge each year individually and on a year to year basis. If the DEFENSE SUCKS this year with Coyle then I will say it. Doesn't change the fact they were VERY VERY GOOD last year and 6th in scoring defense.

Sort of like if Puljos wins the MVP in Year X and the next year he only hits .250 it doesn't change the fact he won the MVP the year before and was good then. Each year is graded by that year and there is NO carry over!

[EKnight]

1) What Cam Newton did was in a PRESEASON game
2) It was also in 2012 not relevant to this debate
3) I have stated numerous times I judge each year individually and on a year to year basis. If the DEFENSE SUCKS this year with Coyle then I will say it. Doesn't change the fact they were VERY VERY GOOD last year and 6th in scoring defense.

Sort of like if Puljos wins the MVP in Year X and the next year he only hits .250 it doesn't change the fact he won the MVP the year before and was good then. Each year is graded by that year and there is NO carry over!

1. You think the secondary is suddenly going to flip a switch, wake up and say- "oh, the preseason is over, these games count now, let's start playing for real" and cover receivers when they couldn't cover anybody at all last year?
2-3. Just because YOU judge them separately doesn't mean others do, and YOU were the one who introduced the fact that the defense didn't change it's primary personnel, which indicates to me an expectation that its results should be equally similar. If you didn't want this year's performance taken into account, you shouldn't have mentioned this year's team being the same. You did that, not me.
It's outlandish to believe Miami had a very very good defense last year.
So, if Pujols wins the MVP in a contract year, his new contract and the expectations should not be based on previous results? He should get, what- league minimum? League average? It's absurd to believe there's no carry over. There's nothing but carry over. The seasons don't happen in a vacuum. -EK

[MikeO]

It's absurd to believe there's no carry over. There's nothing but carry over. The seasons don't happen in a vacuum. -EK

Every team starts the season at 0-0, yes its a vacuum!! lol lol

Last years records and stats don't carry over...lol.

[EKnight]

Very nice way to ignore the Pujols example which I completely turned around on you. If it's in a vacuum and nothing from previous seasons matters, why doesn't Vegas give every team the same shot of winning the Super Bowl? After all, they're all 0-0. It's getting to the point that I think you're responding out of habit and not even thinking your posts through. -EK

[MikeO]

Very nice way to ignore the Pujols example which I completely turned around on you. If it's in a vacuum and nothing from previous seasons matters, why doesn't Vegas give every team the same shot of winning the Super Bowl? After all, they're all 0-0. It's getting to the point that I think you're responding out of habit and not even thinking your posts through. -EK

Because the Puljos example you gave is so beyond foolish and silly. I wasn't going to point that out to try and keep things "civil" around here. It's so bad I am not even going to try and respond because it would be an utter waste of time. I was gonna let it slide but you asked. So.

I didn't ignore the other example either, just see above for my thoughts on that example and its the same for this one. I was gonna let is slide to keep things "civil", but once again, you asked. The "vegas super bowl odds" is a tangent that means nothing to the debate at hand.  The roster and coaching overhaul from year to year is to great in the NFL for there to be carry over. What actually happens in a given year actually does happen in a vacuum. Everyone starts 0-0 each year! No carry over! That is the very definition of a season happening in a vacuum.

As always, believe what ya want! Best of luck to ya.  And have a nice day!

[Spider-Dan]

I don't follow how this makes your point clearer. It seems much more straight forward to me. If the fault of the 6-10 record was ONLY on the offense, Kansas City- with the next to worst offense in football- should not have won more games than Miami. -EK

You cited 5 (but really 6) teams with worse scoring offenses that won more games than MIA.
I cited 18 teams with worse scoring defenses that won more games than MIA.

If we are to determine, based on points (you know, the metric in which the outcome of games is determined), which unit outplayed the team's record, empirically speaking, the defense wins that comparison BY A LANDSLIDE.  This should not be at all surprising when you consider that the defense finished 6th in points allowed, while the offense finished 20th in points scored.

[Spider-Dan]

Then explain once and for all how multiple teams who scored LESS on offense or gave up MORE points on defense had better records.

...?

You want an explanation for how multiple teams that gave up MORE points on defense had a better record?  I just explained it: their offenses were better than Miami's.  This accounts for 13 of the 18 teams that gave up more points while getting more wins.  The other five teams had both worse offenses and defenses than MIA.

There's no portion of a 6-10 team- offense, defense, or special teams- that should be given the praise you keep giving the D ("very very good").

This ridiculous logic would also mean that there is no portion of a 15-1 team that should be criticized, even when they are in the bottom half of the league in points allowed and dead last in yards allowed.

The 2010 Chargers were #2 in points scored, #1 in yards gained, and #1 in yards allowed.  They finished out of the playoffs at 9-7, because they had one of the worst special teams units in the history of the game.  The 2000 Rams were one of the highest scoring teams in the history of the league.  They finished 10-6 because they had the last-ranked scoring defense.

But since you pointed out how they basically have the same team this year, how do you account for the crap product the starters have shown so far this preseason?

Are you serious with this preseason talk?  PRESEASON RESULTS ARE MEANINGLESS.  The 0-16 2008 Lions were 4-0 in the preseason.  Get out of here with that "preseason" noise.

[badger6]

3) I have stated numerous times I judge each year individually and on a year to year basis. If the DEFENSE SUCKS this year with Coyle then I will say it. Doesn't change the fact they were VERY VERY GOOD last year and 6th in scoring defense.

Your grading of a football team is suspect if you think any part of last years team was "VERY VERY GOOD". The most you could say about ANY part of last years team is MEDIOCRE bordering on horrible. Glad you ain't on the coaching staff or front office.

[EKnight]

Thank you Badger. Mike you're wrong. Deal with it. Second time in what- a week? Losing your touch. -EK

[MikeO]

LOL, deal with what?! Because Badger agrees with  you it makes me wrong"?! Are you kidding me! LOL LOL

Home run posts by Spider today explaining this and breaking it down into very simple terms. Great work Spider! One of the valued members of this board I actually look forward to reading even when we disagree at times.

[badger6]

LOL, deal with what?! Because Badger agrees with  you it makes me wrong"?! Are you kidding me! LOL LOL

Home run posts by Spider today explaining this and breaking it down into very simple terms. Great work Spider! One of the valued members of this board I actually look forward to reading even when we disagree at times.

I don't even know what you guys are bitching about, just barely skimming through this thread before bed. Me agreeing with EK doesn't make you wrong. Just like Spider agreeing with you doesn't make you right. Who the f is Spider ? Jesus or something ? Your assessment of ANY part of last years Miami Dolphins as "VERY VERY GOOD" makes you (and Spider by default if he agrees with you) wrong. Last years "TEAM" sucked donkey ass as a mater of fact. And no one is kidding you about that !!!