No stadium. Now what?

[Dave Gray]

Both sides are correct.

Mike O's point that winning doesn't bring in enough revenue is true.
However, the point that it doesn't matter at all is incorrect.  If the Dolphins were winning, it would garnish more support from the community to provide public funds, as well as private investing, which would make it easier to get deals done, thus easier to keep the team here.  Politicians don't want to stick their neck out for a team that is unpopular.

[Brian Fein]

^^ and judging by recent attendance, its not popular.  You gotta believe that may have been a factor.  Numbers don't lie - they may call games a "sell out" for TV purposes, but I bet they probably were at 60-70% capacity for every home game last year.

[MikeO]

Mike O's point that winning doesn't bring in enough revenue is true.
However, the point that it doesn't matter at all is incorrect.  If the Dolphins were winning, it would garnish more support from the community to provide public funds, as well as private investing, which would make it easier to get deals done, thus easier to keep the team here.  Politicians don't want to stick their neck out for a team that is unpopular.

This is all and only about revenue. If the Marlins still paid rent and played in the stadium Ross probably would have paid for the upgrades himself because he would have had a consistent revenue stream (outside of normal NFL activities) coming into him. Without that consistent revenue stream he needs tax dollars to accomplish what needs to be done.  Winning has nothing to do with anything. As I said, if Miami went 13-3 and made the AFC Championship game and lets say lost (still a very successful season), I don't see Ross and Dee now having more support to pass a bill and get tax dollars. Let's extend it out, let's say the Fins have 5 winning seasons in a row, that  won't gain them support to pass a bill 5 years from now. When looking at bills that involve tax dollars nobody in their right mind is looking at the teams record and attendance figures. Either the community wants an NFL franchise or it doesn't. This is a bigger picture issue than selling out 8 games a year and making the playoffs and winning divisions.

In 1980 the Raiders won the Super Bowl in Oakland. In 1982 they were playing in LA! Winning didn't stop them from moving! You think the Oakland politicians cared whether the team won or not? That's not what they are looking at when deciding whether to fight to keep the team or not. You are dealing with bigger issues than wins and loses. In 1994 the Cleveland Browns went 11-5, in the middle of the 1995 season it was announced he was moving the team because Modell couldn't work with the Ohio Politicians. The politicians came when it was too late! Coming off an 11 win season didn't help them any.

So if you think that the Dolphins have a couple good years make the playoffs and the Florida House and politicians will just say ahhh, they are a good team let's pass a bill for them, you are fooling yourself!

Now I am NOT predicting the Fins are moving, but until the stadium issue is resolved they are gonna be on the top of EVERY list with the Chargers as teams that can bolt at anytime. It's a black cloud that will hang over this franchise until this is resolved. Minnesota, Buffalo, and Jax all are locked into their cities for extended periods of time now. It's Miami and SD (and possibly the Rams come next year, gotta wait to see if St.Louis steps up by the deadline) that are on the chopping block as "next up" when it comes to relocation

[MikeO]

^^ and judging by recent attendance, its not popular.  You gotta believe that may have been a factor.  Numbers don't lie - they may call games a "sell out" for TV purposes, but I bet they probably were at 60-70% capacity for every home game last year.

Dolphins averaged 81.0% capacity for home games last year. Average attendance for games was 5th lowest in the entire league. Only Oakland, Tampa, St.Louis, and Cincy had fewer people on average at games.

[MyGodWearsAHoodie]

Mike O's point that winning doesn't bring in enough revenue is true.

Winning brings in more revenue.

1.  You sell more tickets.  (If you only count that, Mike O is correct, if you count #2 on, he is wrong)
2.  You can raise ticket prices.  Waiting list means you can raise prices and not worry about not having a sell out.
3.  You get more ad/sponsorship revenue.  You can sell the same spot for a banner for a lot more if you just won the SB than if you got the #1 pick.
4. You get more TV revenue.
5. You get more radio revenue.
6.  You get 25% more home games.  Instead of just 8 -- you get 10, the last two being playoff games.

Winning = more revenue. 

[MikeO]

Winning brings in more revenue.

1.  You sell more tickets.  (If you only count that, Mike O is correct, if you count #2 on, he is wrong)
2.  You can raise ticket prices.  Waiting list means you can raise prices and not worry about not having a sell out.
3.  You get more ad/sponsorship revenue.  You can sell the same spot for a banner for a lot more if you just won the SB than if you got the #1 pick.
4. You get more TV revenue.
5. You get more radio revenue.
6.  You get 25% more home games.  Instead of just 8 -- you get 10, the last two being playoff games.

Winning = more revenue. 

How the hell do you get more TV Revenue when its a NATIONAL TV DEAL that is split evenly among every team!

Even when the Dolphins were good they didn't sell out PLAYOFF GAMES! They had a home playoff game blacked out not that long ago. Now you are jumping to the team having a "waiting list" and "raising ticket prices"..ha ha ha. The stuff you listed is unrealistic when it comes to the MIAMI DOLPHINS. Maybe for other franchises but not Miami.

The revenue you are mentioning like getting more money for adds and radio spots is nice but doesn't solve the BIG PICTURE problem. It's small picture thinking to a big picture problem!

[MixLovesThemPhins]

how often should a team get a new damn stadium

plus the dolphins are the most popular team in south florida dont even bring up the heat

[MikeO]

how often should a team get a new damn stadium

Roughly 30 years!

Miami's stadium opened in 1987 its old in "stadium standards." It's as one of the oldest stadiums in the league. Old Stadiums either need massive face lifts/upgrades (ie Soldier Field, Arrowhead, and Superdome) or they get torn down around the 30 year mark which Miami is now approaching.

I mean look around the league, The Meadowlands, Three Rivers, The Vet, Silverdome, Astrodome, Riverfront Stadium, and Foxboro Stadium all lasted around the 30 year mark needed to be replaced....and they all were!!!  Hoosier Dome and Kingdome BOTH just lasted only 24 years and were torn down. Metrodome opened in 1982 and will be demolished this next February...around the 30 year mark! When approaching the 30 year mark teams have to decide to invest in upgrades (which is what KC, Chicago, and New Orleans did) or just blow it up and build a new place. Status quo is not a viable option at the 30 year mark. Miami is approaching that 30 year mark and THIS is when those tough decisions need to be made. The Georgia Dome was built AFTER Sun Life and Atlanta wants to tear it down and build a new one. St. Louis wants to either tear down their stadium and build a new one or do massive upgrades to their place and that stadium was built after Sun Life.

Sun Life has a lot of wear and tear for being 26 years old. Marlins playing 81 games a year there for 18 years, Dolphins playing there, College Bowl games, Recently the Hurricanes playing there....that stadium has taken a beating over the years. That stadium was used alot. More often than most stadiums!

[MixLovesThemPhins]

Roughly 30 years!

Miami's stadium opened in 1987 its old in "stadium standards." It's as one of the oldest stadiums in the league. Old Stadiums either need massive face lifts/upgrades (ie Soldier Field, Arrowhead, and Superdome) or they get torn down around the 30 year mark which Miami is now approaching.

I mean look around the league, The Meadowlands, Three Rivers, The Vet, Silverdome, Astrodome, Riverfront Stadium, and Foxboro Stadium all lasted around the 30 year mark needed to be replaced....and they all were!!!  Hoosier Dome and Kingdome BOTH just lasted only 24 years and were torn down. Metrodome opened in 1982 and will be demolished this next February...around the 30 year mark! When approaching the 30 year mark teams have to decide to invest in upgrades (which is what KC, Chicago, and New Orleans did) or just blow it up and build a new place. Status quo is not a viable option at the 30 year mark. Miami is approaching that 30 year mark and THIS is when those tough decisions need to be made. The Georgia Dome was built AFTER Sun Life and Atlanta wants to tear it down and build a new one. St. Louis wants to either tear down their stadium and build a new one or do massive upgrades to their place and that stadium was built after Sun Life.

Sun Life has a lot of wear and tear for being 26 years old. Marlins playing 81 games a year there for 18 years, Dolphins playing there, College Bowl games, Recently the Hurricanes playing there....that stadium has taken a beating over the years. That stadium was used alot. More often than most stadiums!

alright and this guy wants to have funding for 30 years on the stadium which would mean the stadium would be 60 yrs old when it's finally done being paid off?

am i correct

[MikeO]

alright and this guy wants to have funding for 30 years on the stadium which would mean the stadium would be 60 yrs old when it's finally done being paid off?

am i correct

Yep and that is fine. If you do the renovations right it can last. Solider Field has been around since the start of time, they renovated it correctly and will last god knows how many more years. Arrowhead is 40+ years old and their renovations will keep it going for a long while into a 60 year old stadium. Same with the Superdome.

[CF DolFan]

Yep and that is fine. If you do the renovations right it can last. Solider Field has been around since the start of time, they renovated it correctly and will last god knows how many more years. Arrowhead is 40+ years old and their renovations will keep it going for a long while into a 60 year old stadium. Same with the Superdome.

We haven't won squat in this stadium even with one of the best QBs of all time.  I think it's bad luck or is cursed.

[Brian Fein]

So how do you judge if any organization has community support? You could let the community vote... oh wait, that didn't happen. Absent of that, you could look at attendance numbers, 5th worst in the league and approaching the lowest in team history.

Win games, attendance goes up. Guaranteed. May not solve the problem but shows more community support. Who knows what happens beyond that.

These guys aren't dummies. They will figure something out.

[MikeO]

So how do you judge if any organization has community support? You could let the community vote... oh wait, that didn't happen. Absent of that, you could look at attendance numbers, 5th worst in the league and approaching the lowest in team history.

Win games, attendance goes up. Guaranteed. May not solve the problem but shows more community support. Who knows what happens beyond that.

These guys aren't dummies. They will figure something out.

Once again you are missing the big picture. It's not only about the Dolphins when it comes to this issue! You are looking at it as only a Dolphins issue, that's only a part of it. It's a community issue. Want an NFL Team? Want Super Bowls in South Florida on a regular basis that bring in big money? Want NCAA/BCS Championship games going forward that bring in big money? Want major world wide soccer events? Want all of these major events to bring in tourism to the area and bring in outside money to the area to have a better economy in South Florida? If the answer is YES then you upgrade the current stadium or build a new stadium. Whether the Fins are 12-4 or 4-12...Who the F' cares!! That has nothing to do with whether you upgrade or build a new stadium!!! The Dolphins winning games isn't even on the list of importance its not even worth mentioning! Some of you guys can't see the forest from the trees

[el diablo]

I can see both Brian & Mike's last points. Its true, if you want events to keep coming to south Florida then renovations or a new stadium needs to happen. At the same time, if you're going to lean on public dollars for support, then a winning team goes a long way. Especially with the tradition this team has. It doesn't help when the public knows that the league with the owner could build this themselves. Especially when ticket prices and concession prices raise along with the new or renovated stadium. The average local might not see a raise in their paycheck to support that. Unfortunately for Miami-Dade this never came to a vote. But it doesn't stop the owner from financing this himself. Others have. That's seeing the forest for the trees.

[MikeO]

I can see both Brian & Mike's last points. Its true, if you want events to keep coming to south Florida then renovations or a new stadium needs to happen. At the same time, if you're going to lean on public dollars for support, then a winning team goes a long way. Especially with the tradition this team has. It doesn't help when the public knows that the league with the owner could build this themselves. Especially when ticket prices and concession prices raise along with the new or renovated stadium. The average local might not see a raise in their paycheck to support that. Unfortunately for Miami-Dade this never came to a vote. But it doesn't stop the owner from financing this himself. Others have. That's seeing the forest for the trees.

Name the owner (in any sport) who in recent times has paid 100% for a new a stadium and NOT taken/used public money? Those days of that being a realistic option are long gone!  This isn't the 70's and 80's....those days are over with.