Repeal Stand Your Ground Law - "it assisted the person who killed my son"

[CF DolFan]

It doesn't look as if Florida lawmakers are too concerned about the law. It says 33 out of 160 voted to discuss it and that would line up with the polls that say about 20% of people care to do so. Hopefully these people go back to work or find another sit-in in another state.

http://www.clickorlando.com/news/florida-legislators-vote-down-special-stand-your-ground-session/-/1637132/21470198/-/14bu8bpz/-/index.html

Florida legislators vote down special ''stand your ground'' session
Florida's Republican-controlled Legislature is coming out solidly against a special session to repeal the state's "stand your ground law."

The Department of State on Wednesday released a list that showed more than half of the state's 160-member Legislature has already voted against the idea.

The vote was triggered earlier after 33 legislators asked for a special session in writing. They were urged to do so by protesters upset with the July verdict in the George Zimmerman case.

Under an obscure state law, the written requests required an official poll. A yes vote by three-fifths of the Legislature would have resulted in a special session.

Three days after Zimmerman was acquitted, protesters arrived at the Capitol. They have been spending the night near Scott's offices since then

[bsmooth]

I want to be straight here. I've seen many comments where people promoted escalating the amounf of violence once attacked. That is not what I am promoting at all. Given that, I corrected you statement to fall in line with my position.

A person should not be forced to retreat but they also should not expect to be able to use more force than necessary to fend off an attack.

Not forced to...make a reasonable effort. That can also mean that a reasonable person would realize there was no where to go.
You make it seem that there are a lot of people wrongfully convicted for not retreating, when they claimed self defense...and I do not see it.

[Phishfan]

Not forced to...make a reasonable effort. That can also mean that a reasonable person would realize there was no where to go.
You make it seem that there are a lot of people wrongfully convicted for not retreating, when they claimed self defense...and I do not see it.

Forced to consider retreat is what I should say and no I am not making it seem as there are a lot. I don;t even think there are a lot but i know there are some. I just feel having one person convicted of what I consider rightfully standing their ground is too many.

[Dave Gray]

I think that at some level, we need to put people's judgment on trial.  If you kill a guy because you think he's trying to break into your house, you better be damned sure that you're right.  If he was just checking the water meter, but you killed him because you "felt threatened", I don't care -- Go directly to jail.

I think we're giving way too much leniency to suspicion in a lot of these cases.

[MyGodWearsAHoodie]

I think that at some level, we need to put people's judgment on trial.  If you kill a guy because you think he's trying to break into your house, you better be damned sure that you're right.  If he was just checking the water meter, but you killed him because you "felt threatened", I don't care -- Go directly to jail.

I think we're giving way too much leniency to suspicion in a lot of these cases.

Yes, we should a person's judgement on trial.

Lets say an actual water meter person, is running behind schedule so he is working late, say 11 pm checking water meters.  He is wearing nothing that indicated he is a water meter checker, his truck doesn't indicate he works for the water department.  You shoot him thinking he is a burglar.  -- I would say you are not guilty of murder.

OTOH, 2 pm in the afternoon, guy is wearing a shirt with "Miami Water Department" on the back of the shirt, he is driving a truck that says Miami water department.  And you shoot him... then guilty of murder. 

That is bit short of damn sure you are right.  It is would a reasonable person think that the person works for the water department or is a burglar. 

[Guru-In-Vegas]

Lets say an actual water meter person, is running behind schedule so he is working late, say 11 pm checking water meters.  He is wearing nothing that indicated he is a water meter checker, his truck doesn't indicate he works for the water department.  You shoot him thinking he is a burglar.  -- I would say you are not guilty of murder.

Are you serious?

I don't know who I'd fear more.  A potential burglar or a paranoid 'Murrcan with a gun and a John Wayne fixation.  Actually I do, and it's obviously the guy who thinks the law's on his side when he KILLS.

[Dave Gray]

Lets say an actual water meter person, is running behind schedule so he is working late, say 11 pm checking water meters.  He is wearing nothing that indicated he is a water meter checker, his truck doesn't indicate he works for the water department.  You shoot him thinking he is a burglar.  -- I would say you are not guilty of murder.

OTOH, 2 pm in the afternoon, guy is wearing a shirt with "Miami Water Department" on the back of the shirt, he is driving a truck that says Miami water department.  And you shoot him... then guilty of murder. 

I disagree with your assessment.  I think both are murder....or at least criminal negligence.

[pondwater]

I think that at some level, we need to put people's judgment on trial.  If you kill a guy because you think he's trying to break into your house, you better be damned sure that you're right.  If he was just checking the water meter, but you killed him because you "felt threatened", I don't care -- Go directly to jail.

I think we're giving way too much leniency to suspicion in a lot of these cases.

You left out one thing. What if the meter reader is on top of you punching you in the face and ramming your head into the ground. Let's get away from useless hypotheticals and get back to the actual situation that prompted this discussion. Zimmerman was being beaten by Martin. There is no evidence to refute that and plenty of evidence to substantiate it. And as the "fighters for the unfortunate" have asked over and over. What if Zimmerman didn't have a gun? Well if Zimmerman didn't have a gun, Trayvon would have been arrested and prosecuted for aggravated assault.

[Spider-Dan]

Lets say an actual water meter person, is running behind schedule so he is working late, say 11 pm checking water meters.  He is wearing nothing that indicated he is a water meter checker, his truck doesn't indicate he works for the water department.  You shoot him thinking he is a burglar.  -- I would say you are not guilty of murder.

OTOH, 2 pm in the afternoon, guy is wearing a shirt with "Miami Water Department" on the back of the shirt, he is driving a truck that says Miami water department.  And you shoot him... then guilty of murder. 

That is bit short of damn sure you are right.  It is would a reasonable person think that the person works for the water department or is a burglar.

But here's the point: the SYG laws you are arguing for specifically remove judgment from the equation, by design.

Unlike normal self-defense laws which take into account whether you could have defused the situation by retreating and calling the police, SYG enables/encourages you to grab your gun and go solve the problem yourself.

[Spider-Dan]

You left out one thing. What if the meter reader is on top of you punching you in the face and ramming your head into the ground. Let's get away from useless hypotheticals and get back to the actual situation that prompted this discussion.

If you want to talk about the Zimmerman trial, there's already a thread for that.

This thread is about SYG laws, not George Zimmerman specifically.

[CF DolFan]

I disagree with your assessment.  I think both are murder....or at least criminal negligence.

I think you need more info before you can pass judgement.

Meters are typically set at the right-of-way so the guy shouldn't be anywhere near a window. Typically municipalities own up to meter and homeowner after the meter. If you shoot him next the road at 3 am then that's murder. If he is in your back yard looking through your sliding glass door or open window because he wanted to ask how my meter got broken then that's mistaken identity.

BTW ... In Florida many water departments have someone on the road working all night watching for unauthorized water usage.

[MyGodWearsAHoodie]

But here's the point: the SYG laws you are arguing for specifically remove judgment from the equation, by design.

Unlike normal self-defense laws which take into account whether you could have defused the situation by retreating and calling the police, SYG enables/encourages you to grab your gun and go solve the problem yourself.

No they don't.  Judgement is still a major factor.

SYG laws - were you in reasonable apprehension of a legitimate threat.

non-SYG laws - were you in reasonable apprehension of a legitimate threat and unable to retreat and/or conform to the wishes of the other (hand over wallet to a mugger, give the carjacker your car, etc)


 

[pondwater]

If you want to talk about the Zimmerman trial, there's already a thread for that.

This thread is about SYG laws, not George Zimmerman specifically.

Repeal Stand Your Ground Law -"it assisted the person who killed my son"And who was that?
Let's not pretend that this thread would even exist if the incident between Martin and Zimmerman had never occurred. SYG doesn't allow someone to shoot the cable guy or UPS man. This whole discussion has become ridiculous.

[CF DolFan]

Spider .... SYG had less than Zero to do with this case so why pretend it did? It changes nothing. Just because she said it did doesn't mean it did. that was the point of this thread.

Random info that means nothing to anyone but me ....

Former Chief Lee sat at the table beside me for lunch today. I couldn't help but think I should buy his lunch and say "buddy ... I'm sorry but you got screwed for having integrity!!!"

[MyGodWearsAHoodie]

She is right about something... "standing his ground" did kill Martin. 

It is not hard to figure out what happened.  Zimmerman was being a jerk, so Martin beat the shit out of him, and while getting the shit kicked out of him Zimmerman shot Martin. 

Had Martin not "stood his ground." Zimmerman would not have shot him.