Race relations/affirmative action

[Spider-Dan]

I have every reason to believe a black man talking about his own community as much as I have a reason to believe the polls you posted. After all those people did not tell it to me directly either and are anonymous. This guy is on record talking about his community,

So basically, you're saying that an unattributed secondhand comment carries the same weight as a poll?

It's getting pretty tedious trying to explain statements attributed to the nebulous black community, when no one can even define what comprises the white community.  This is the equivalent of me quoting a white person who had some other white people say racist things about blacks to him this one time.  You can't even give me a direct quote from a real person and this is a serious response?  I could fill this thread with direct quotes from real people saying racist things about Trayvon Martin with little effort.

"But did the African Americans rejoicing at O.J.'s acquittal really believe he was innocent?

Absolutely not. I don't think we should make the mistake of believing that black people who celebrated a) thought O.J. was innocent, or b) were even concerned most about O.J. as opposed to their Uncle Charlie or Bubba or their sister Shanaynay or their Aunt Jackie, who had been screwed by a system that never paid attention to them.[...]"

Did you think Zimmerman was innocent, or did you think the prosecution failed to prove that he was guilty?

And again, we have the nebulous attribution of some black people thought with no real person attached to it.  No actual person in that article agreed with the verdict strictly because of OJ's race.

As for what I call someone from Spain or Portugal, Hispanic.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hispanic

Hispanic is an ethnonym that denotes a relationship to Spain or, in some definitions, to ancient Roman Hispania, which roughly comprised the Iberian Peninsula including the contemporary states of Andorra, Portugal, and Spain and the Crown Colony or British Overseas Territories of Gibraltar. [...]

Due to the technical distinctions involved in defining "race" vs. "ethnicity," there is confusion among the general population about the designation of Hispanic identity. Currently, the United States Census Bureau defines five race categories:

    White
    Black or African American
    Native American or Alaska Native
    Asian
    Native Hawaiian or Other Pacific Islander

According to census reports, of the above races the largest number of Hispanic or Latinos are of the White Race, the second largest number come from the Native American/American Indian race who were the indigenous people of the Americas. The inhabitants of Easter Island are Pacific Islanders and since the island belongs to Chile they are theoretically Hispanic or Latinos. Because Hispanic roots are considered aligned with a European ancestry (Spain), Hispanic/Latino ancestry is defined solely as an ethnic designation (similar to being Norse or Germanic). Therefore, a person of Hispanic descent is typically defined using both race and ethnicity as an identifier—i.e., Black-Hispanic, White-Hispanic, Asian-Hispanic, Amerindian-Hispanic or "other race" Hispanic.
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To categorize Zimmerman as "white" (without mentioning that he is Hispanic) is no less accurate than to categorize Donald Sterling as "white" (without mentioning that he is Jewish).

[Phishfan]

So basically, you're saying that an unattributed secondhand comment carries the same weight as a poll?

I'm simply going to ignore this. Go ahead and feign ignorance if you want. You and I both know there were some people who absolutely felt that way. Respected black men have said they heard it. I'm sure they are just lying about it to prove the point of a white guy.

It's getting pretty tedious trying to explain statements attributed to the nebulous black community, when no one can even define what comprises the white community.  This is the equivalent of me quoting a white person who had some other white people say racist things about blacks to him this one time.  You can't even give me a direct quote from a real person and this is a serious response?  I could fill this thread with direct quotes from real people saying racist things about Trayvon Martin with little effort.

I've never attributed anything to the entire black community so go ahead with the straw argument if you want. The white community argument is a moot point. Do I know there are some white assholes? Absolutely. Have I once said anything about blacks as a whole? No.

Did you think Zimmerman was innocent, or did you think the prosecution failed to prove that he was guilty?

He was found not guilty. I'm not sure what to believe except there was a lack of direct evidence of murder.

And again, we have the nebulous attribution of some black people thought with no real person attached to it.  No actual person in that article agreed with the verdict strictly because of OJ's race.

I already addressed your feigning ignorance here. Believe what you want to believe. The fact of the matter is these are people speaking about their own neighborhood and experiences while being on the record. What purpose could they have in not telling the truth? Why would they want to bring down their own people in this instance? What purpose could it possibly serve?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hispanic

Hispanic is an ethnonym that denotes a relationship to Spain or, in some definitions, to ancient Roman Hispania, which roughly comprised the Iberian Peninsula including the contemporary states of Andorra, Portugal, and Spain and the Crown Colony or British Overseas Territories of Gibraltar. [...]

Due to the technical distinctions involved in defining "race" vs. "ethnicity," there is confusion among the general population about the designation of Hispanic identity. Currently, the United States Census Bureau defines five race categories:

    White
    Black or African American
    Native American or Alaska Native
    Asian
    Native Hawaiian or Other Pacific Islander

According to census reports, of the above races the largest number of Hispanic or Latinos are of the White Race, the second largest number come from the Native American/American Indian race who were the indigenous people of the Americas. The inhabitants of Easter Island are Pacific Islanders and since the island belongs to Chile they are theoretically Hispanic or Latinos. Because Hispanic roots are considered aligned with a European ancestry (Spain), Hispanic/Latino ancestry is defined solely as an ethnic designation (similar to being Norse or Germanic). Therefore, a person of Hispanic descent is typically defined using both race and ethnicity as an identifier—i.e., Black-Hispanic, White-Hispanic, Asian-Hispanic, Amerindian-Hispanic or "other race" Hispanic.
--

To categorize Zimmerman as "white" (without mentioning that he is Hispanic) is no less accurate than to categorize Donald Sterling as "white" (without mentioning that he is Jewish).

You missed several races listed on the census form, or I guess Wikipedia did. There are actually 15 races listed on the form (and multiple selections can be made) with one of them being "Some other race" which by the government's definition on the form includes mixed race. Some other race was actually the second highest reported race by Hispanics. Zimmerman's ancestry according to Wikipedia is from a Peruvian mother (with an Afro-Peruvian mother of her own) and a German descended father. So why is it correct to say he is white (or white Hispanic) while ignoring his African roots then? Why ignore the Peruvian aspect which would fall under the Some other race category?

http://www.census.gov/prod/cen2010/briefs/c2010br-02.pdf

[Spider-Dan]

I think we've spent too much time on a very minor point ("supporters") anyway.  I believe we can both agree that people exist who wanted OJ or Zimmerman acquitted to the exclusion of all facts or rule of law.  I don't think those people carry significance (in either case); maybe you disagree.

--

There's a larger point in the context of this conversation to be made about the whole "white Hispanic" thing: whether Zimmerman is actually treated as a minority.  You say it's obvious that he's Hispanic, but I disagree; if the people on Jersey Shore are classified as white, then I don't think someone of his appearance with the last name of Zimmerman would have any problem passing as, say, Jewish.  Similarly, I think that Mariah Carey (who identifies as black) could easily pass as white if she cared to; the same goes for Vin Diesel or Derek Jeter.

So from the standpoint of racial profiling (which is really the point), I think it's entirely plausible that this not-extremely-ethnic-looking man of mixed white and Hispanic heritage (with a white father) with a history of conservative beliefs could easily have racially profiled Martin, without having the life experience of being racially profiled that might cause one to think twice about such things.

[Phishfan]

OK, but I have to disagree with all of your examples completely. I do not think any of them pass for the suggested race you mentioned (at least as a singular race) as they are all clearly mixed race.

Also, as for Martin being racially profiled I would not argue that in the least. But what you seem to miss is that a white person is not the only race that can profile someone of color. An Asian person can just as easily profile a black person walking down the street. There is also profiling within the same race (and if you are suggesting I've not been profiled you are mistaken). There are subcultures within the same race which can lead to the profiling efforts. My own example, there have been periods in my life where I have appeared very much the hippy when I wanted to. Bare and dirty feet, long hair, a beard so long I wanted to punch the next baffoon who asked me about those idiots on Duck Dynasty,scraggly clothes, etc. You don't think I haven't been pulled aside and questioned, searched, etc. I know exactly what it means to have been profiled.

[MyGodWearsAHoodie]

Zimmerman killed a black teenager who allegedly attacked him.  I think everyone can agree that if Trayvon Martin was a blond-haired, blue-eyed teenager, the national perception of this story would have been radically different.

If TM was white it would have been a three day local story, and the national perception would have been zero.   

[Cathal]

If TM was white it would have been a three day local story, and the national perception would have been zero.   

So true.

[Spider-Dan]

If TM was white it would have been a three day local story, and the national perception would have been zero.

The interesting thought experiment would be if TM had shot GZ (though I don't know if minors can have CC permits in FL).

[Spider-Dan]

OK, but I have to disagree with all of your examples completely. I do not think any of them pass for the suggested race you mentioned (at least as a singular race) as they are all clearly mixed race.

Mariah Carey disagrees.



I've seen many people who identify as white that look a lot more ethnic than any of the people I mentioned.  But whatever, I suppose.

Also, as for Martin being racially profiled I would not argue that in the least. But what you seem to miss is that a white person is not the only race that can profile someone of color. An Asian person can just as easily profile a black person walking down the street.

That's true, and there are many complex issues dealing with affirmative action as it relates to Asians.  I'm not sure I'd say that Asians have the same lazy welfare moochers stereotype than many blacks and Latinos suffer.

There is also profiling within the same race (and if you are suggesting I've not been profiled you are mistaken). There are subcultures within the same race which can lead to the profiling efforts. My own example, there have been periods in my life where I have appeared very much the hippy when I wanted to. Bare and dirty feet, long hair, a beard so long I wanted to punch the next baffoon who asked me about those idiots on Duck Dynasty,scraggly clothes, etc. You don't think I haven't been pulled aside and questioned, searched, etc. I know exactly what it means to have been profiled.

Being profiled due to factors under your control is not the same thing.  If someone discriminates against me because I'm filthy and I stink, that's not remotely similar to discriminating against me because of my skin color.

[MyGodWearsAHoodie]

If someone discriminates against me because I'm filthy and I stink, that's not remotely similar to discriminating against me because of my skin color.

And if a cop does more stop and frisks on African Americans wearing gang colors than whites sporting football jersey's does that mean he is racist or is discriminating against gangs?

[Spider-Dan]

And if a cop does more stop and frisks on African Americans wearing gang colors than whites sporting football jersey's does that mean he is racist or is discriminating against gangs?

Do you mean football jerseys like these?



To answer your question: I'm pretty sure that black people don't have access to more or different clothing colors than anyone else (red is no less a "gang color" when a white person is wearing it), so when you say "gang colors," I presume you mean urban clothing?  In that case, to permit stop-and-frisk based solely on that is to create a literal fashion police.

[CF DolFan]

Depending on the area ... gang colors are different. It's not always even a color as much as types of clothing etc. A bandanna, wristband, tattoos, hats, the way you wear clothing etc. I'm sure local police are familiar with what gangs identify themselves as.

One person could wear a Raiders jersey and not be flying the colors while another would be depending on how they are wearing it or their accessories.