World Cup chatter thread.

[MyGodWearsAHoodie]

but the Portugal tie still stings because

Disagree.  Even if we had beaten Portugal AND Germany we would be in the same situation we are now...advancing to the knock out round.

[Pappy13]

Disagree.  Even if we had beaten Portugal AND Germany we would be in the same situation we are now...advancing to the knock out round.

Well not quite, we wouldn't be playing Belgium, we'd be playing Algeria. But if we had beaten Portugal, we would still be right where we are, so it really didn't matter that we tied them.

[EDGECRUSHER]

It's more of a mental thing. Playing Germany with the knowledge that you already advances and only needing a draw to win the group of death. Quite an accomplishment.

Still, we can beat Belgium.

[Spider-Dan]

So I have a question:

Apparently at this stage of the World Cup, the concept of a tie becomes distasteful and impractical, so games are decided on penalty shots?

[EDGECRUSHER]

Yes, there has to be a winner. So, after 90 minutes, they play two 15 minute periods. These are not sudden death. So, if the game is still tied, then penalty kicks.

[Pappy13]

So I have a question:

Apparently at this stage of the World Cup, the concept of a tie becomes distasteful and impractical, so games are decided on penalty shots?

Not distasteful, impossible. There has to be a winner in the knockout stage of a tournament.

[Spider-Dan]

So why doesn't there have to be a winner in the group stages?  I mean, if you can use tournament goals scored and other tiebreakers in the group stage, why can't you use them for ties in knockout, too?

I just don't see why ties are permitted to occur, especially with frequency.

[CF DolFan]

Group play is exactly that. It's how you fared against the group and not the individual team. 3 points for a win and 1 point for a tie. Top teams in each group move on to the elimination round where only one team moves on. The leagues are run in the same format. You are competing to win points and not necessarily games albeit could be argued the same thing.

Many peoplem, and pretty much all purists, do not consider a game that goes to PKs a win or loss. They still consider it a tie. The PKs only function is to see who moves on.

[Cathal]

So why doesn't there have to be a winner in the group stages?  I mean, if you can use tournament goals scored and other tiebreakers in the group stage, why can't you use them for ties in knockout, too?

I just don't see why ties are permitted to occur, especially with frequency.

Isn't it the same reason you can't have a tie in an NFL playoff game? There has to be a winner but a tie can exist in the regular season.

[Spider-Dan]

In the NFL, one OT is enough to resolve the overwhelming majority of games.  There have only been 5 double OT playoff games in NFL history, and never a triple OT.  But in soccer (and hockey), ties happen all the time.

Anyway, I get it, I'm not refined enough to appreciate the beauty of a tie (like many other Americans).  This is not a new argument and is not really specific to the World Cup.  I was just surprised that they went to PKs before the World Cup final.

[EDGECRUSHER]

They go to PKs to essentially prevent the players from dying of exhaustion. An average player will run about 7-10 KM a game. I am American, so I don't know what that is in miles, so let's say 4-6? Pretty much non-stop except for halftime. It's just too much to keep playing until a goal is scored.

P.S. I forgot, they also take breaks when they disgrace themselves and their country by diving, as you saw in today's Mexico/Netherlands game which won the game for the Dutch on a penalty kick.

[Pappy13]

So why doesn't there have to be a winner in the group stages?  I mean, if you can use tournament goals scored and other tiebreakers in the group stage, why can't you use them for ties in knockout, too?

I just don't see why ties are permitted to occur, especially with frequency.

The difference is that in Group play it's round robin. Everyone plays everyone else 1 time for a total of 3 games. You get 3 points for a win and 1 point for a tie. The 2 teams with the most points advance out of the bracket to the knockout stage. Goals scored are used as tie breakers if points are the same.

Knockout is mono a mono. One team against one team. How would you use goal differential when the game ends in a tie? The goal differential would necessarily have to be the same as well. You can't use goal differential or goals scored or anything else to do with goals because the game ended in a tie.

TLDR: Knockout is different from group play. A draw is a perfectly acceptable outcome in group play, it's not in knockout play.

[Pappy13]

In the NFL, one OT is enough to resolve the overwhelming majority of games.  There have only been 5 double OT playoff games in NFL history, and never a triple OT.

But ties happen in the regular season fairly regularly when you don't necessarily HAVE to have a winner. How's that different from Soccer?

But in soccer (and hockey), ties happen all the time.

It's similar to the difference between regular season and playoffs for Hockey and the NFL. You could think of the group play as the "regular season" for the World cup and the knockout round as the "playoffs". Then Hockey and Soccer are essentially the same and they would be very similar to College Football where they go to setting the ball on the 20 and you try to score from there to get a winner. It's really not all that unusual, it just happens more in Hockey and Soccer. Soccer has been around a long time and the system works fine as it is, don't really see a compelling reason to change it. Shootouts are actually EXTREMELY entertaining to watch and there's even quite a bit of gamesmanship going into them. If you recall the Olympics, the US won a hockey game when they basically had the same man take all of the penalty shots. He was brought to the Olympics in part because of his terrific ability to score on penalty shots.

If there's one thing I would change about the shootouts in the world cup it's the way they do them. In high school in Texas they don't do shootouts the way they do them in the World Cup. The ball is placed about 20 yards away from the goal and once the shooter touches the ball the goalie can leave his line. Then you basically get something similar to a breakaway in Soccer with a 1 on 1 matchup with the goalie. A good goalie will win a pretty high percentage of these types of shootouts and the attacking player's skill is much more evident because they can try to "chip" the goalie, dribble around them, etc, very similar to the shootouts in the NHL. It's not simply line up a take a shot like the World Cup.

[Dave Gray]

^ Are you saying that ties happen regularly in the NFL regular season?  Because if so, I'll have to disagree.  They are very rare.

[Pappy13]

^ Are you saying that ties happen regularly in the NFL regular season?  Because if so, I'll have to disagree.  They are very rare.

Well maybe regularly was the wrong word, but there have been a couple the last couple of years, so they aren't exactly unheard of. The point I was making was that even in the NFL, a tie during the regular season is possible and at one time it wasn't rare at all. Some of us have just been around long enough to remember those times.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_NFL_tied_games