It's official: Hillary vs. Trump

[MyGodWearsAHoodie]

http://www.cnn.com/2016/08/08/politics/evan-mcmullin-conservative-trump-clinton/index.html

Why?

I am all for stopping Trump, but a third party protest candidate already exists. McMullin won't be taking votes away from Trump but Johnson.   

[CF DolFan]

Facts? Like you guys are interested in facts. This site is one of the worst places for confirmation bias I have ever seen. I have many liberal friends and like myself, they concede things on their side isn't really rosey either. You guys can't even admit what 2/3rds of the country have already realized. Talk about slow learners.

Another non FOX story ...

CNN’s Tapper: Fact Checkers Are Going To Run Out Of 'Pinocchios' Calling Out Hillary's Lies
https://youtu.be/iWift0zqyZ8

[Dave Gray]

I am all for stopping Trump, but a third party protest candidate already exists. McMullin won't be taking votes away from Trump but Johnson.   

Religious social conservatives have nowhere go.

[MyGodWearsAHoodie]

Religious social conservatives have nowhere go.

Darrell Castle already on the ballot in ~20 states and their platform is the religious social conservative wing of the republican party. 

[Spider-Dan]

Facts? Like you guys are interested in facts.

I don't know what you expect from "liberals" when any source to the left of Fox News is immediately declared a leftist shill.  Which fact-checking organization do you think is legitimate... any of them?  Because I'm willing to bet that any fact-checking group that isn't OPENLY conservative will give very similar results to the ones I posted.

Another non FOX story ...

CNN’s Tapper: Fact Checkers Are Going To Run Out Of 'Pinocchios' Calling Out Hillary's Lies
https://youtu.be/iWift0zqyZ8

Again, it's funny that you're talking about Pinocchios given when you simultaneously declare that the enormous mountain of Pinocchios given to Trump are all meaningless.  Hillary would have to have nothing but press conferences about e-mails for the next three months to catch up to Trump (and that's if Trump stopped adding more lies to his collection).

[MyGodWearsAHoodie]

Facts? Like you guys are interested in facts. This site is one of the worst places for confirmation bias I have ever seen. I have many liberal friends and like myself, they concede things on their side isn't really rosey either. You guys can't even admit what 2/3rds of the country have already realized. Talk about slow learners.

Another non FOX story ...

CNN’s Tapper: Fact Checkers Are Going To Run Out Of 'Pinocchios' Calling Out Hillary's Lies
https://youtu.be/iWift0zqyZ8

I am conceding she has been less than truthful about the overblown email story.  (1 lie)  And "fact checking" organization call that a lie.

Here is a list of Trump lies.....

* Says he saw videotape "of the people taking the money off the plane" to pay ransom to Iran for hostages.

* Says "Hillary Clinton says she wants to, ‘raise taxes on the middle class.’ "

*"I’m beating (Kelly Ayotte) in the polls by a lot."

*"Youth unemployment is through the roof."

*"We have a fire marshal that said, 'Oh we can't allow more people’ ...  And the reason they won't let them in is because they don't know what the hell they're doing." 

*"As usual, Hillary & the Dems are trying to rig the debates so 2 are up against major NFL games."

*He claimed the NFL sent him a letter about the debates. 

etc etc etc.

I am not claiming Hillary has never lied, nor are the vast majority of her supporters.  But she is a lot more honest than her opponent.  Hillary is not perfect, she was not my first choice, heck she wasn't even my second choice among democratic candidates this election cycle until  O'Malley dropped out.  But Trump lies with a frequency that surpasses any and all other politicians. 

 

[MyGodWearsAHoodie]

http://www.cnn.com/2016/08/08/politics/republican-national-security-letter-donald-trump-election-2016/index.html

Every election you get one or two defectors:  e.g. Zell Miller, Colin Powel, Joe Lieberman.

But I have never seen anything like this.  Both living Presidents, the last presidential candidate for the party, several of this year's candidates, organizations that have supported only Republican candidates. 

(Don't bother tell me that you know of democrats that aren't voting for Hillary, I am not talking about random internet posters or your brother-in-law's cousin.  I am talking about lifelong members of the party that have held positions in the party and government.) 

[CF DolFan]

You mean the "establishment people"?  I am bothered to see some leaving but one could argue that actually helps his cause as that is what he is running on. And let's be honest. The Bush's and the Clinton's are a very tight group already so it isn't a big leap for them.

Many of the people who voted for Trump in the primary aren't typical establishment Republicans and that is why people like Bush never had a chance. All the money in the world and attacks on other candidates couldn't get him votes. The establishment people are in the minority these days and is also why Hillary had so many problems with Sanders.

Trump's only hope is to get independents and fringe democrats because he never had all of the republican party.

[MyGodWearsAHoodie]

You mean the "establishment people"?  I am bothered to see some leaving but one could argue that actually helps his cause as that is what he is running on. And let's be honest. The Bush's and the Clinton's are a very tight group already so it isn't a big leap for them.

I will concede to you his base loves the rejection of the establishment republican's.   

Trump's only hope is to get independents and fringe democrats because he never had all of the republican party.

This hurts him with both those groups.

Rivals are one thing, but when 50 republican national security experts come out against Trump that has to raise doubt in the minds of anyone but his most ardent supports at Trumps ability to keep this country safe.  Independents are going to take note.

This letter, Trump's attack on the Khan, and Trumps apparent lack of knowledge that Russia invaded Ukraine  have done more to unify democrats against Trump than anything either HRC, Sanders or any democrat could possibly ever say. 

[Spider-Dan]

Trump's only hope is to get independents and fringe democrats because he never had all of the republican party.

While I don't dispute the accuracy of your statement, I think you may be understating the task ahead for Trump.

I'm not sure that these "fringe Democrats" - otherwise stated as people who are very receptive to Trump's message of a rigged economy and political system, but who are willing to overlook what he says on everything else - hadn't already jumped ship to the GOP by 2010.  Additionally, in this country "independents" is code for "extreme partisans," and while the extreme right is an easy get, I don't see why any extreme leftist would get on board with Trump (outside of a naked "punish the Democrats" vote).

It's hard to believe Trump is anti-globalism when all his Trump-branded products are made overseas.
It's hard to believe Trump is for helping the middle class when he wants to implement massive tax cuts for billionaires with no way to pay for them.
It's hard to believe Trump is anti-war when he's talking about aggressively destroying ISIS (and intentionally targeting their families in the process).

However, I don't deny that "Make America Great Again" is a potent lure for a certain group of people who want to return to the way things used to be, and for those people, policy details may not be as important as the promise of restored order to an older hierarchy.

[CF DolFan]

It's hard to believe Trump is anti-globalism when all his Trump-branded products are made overseas.
It's hard to believe Trump is for helping the middle class when he wants to implement massive tax cuts for billionaires with no way to pay for them.
It's hard to believe Trump is anti-war when he's talking about aggressively destroying ISIS (and intentionally targeting their families in the process).

Trump said early in the debates he has things made out of country. That was one of the first things he was questioned on. He went on to say he would make doing business out of the country less desirable and he himself would have to change.

As far as the middle class thing it comes down to politics. Republicans believe making it easier to do business helps everyone and Democrats believe making the rich pay for the poor helps everyone. Nothing new here.

Not sure about the anti-war he is supposed to be but we do need to be more aggressive on Isis and Isis type organizations.

Look ... I'm far from a die hard Trump fan but I'm also far from bailing unless a better option comes along and it isn't Hillary. Her offices in Philadelphia were just raided and every week wiki leaks gives us more of the crap she has done. I heard someone say that Trump says stupid things but Hilary has actually done a lot of stupid things and hasn't learned anything except she can get away with murder.

[MyGodWearsAHoodie]

Trump's only hope is to get independents and fringe democrats because he never had all of the republican party.

Upon further reflection, I don't think that is the key.  The key is turnout and who chooses pragmatism vs. symbolism.

The number of undecided or sway-able voters form the perspective of Trump vs. Clinton is almost nil.  E.g. someone who hasn't decide if they are voting for Trump or Clinton.  

Here are the issues:  

Trump is not getting the Sanders supports.  The question: do the Sanders voters vote for Hillary or do they stayhome/Stein/Johnson?

Trump is not getting the #NeverTrump republicans.  The question do these folks vote for Hillary or do they stayhome/Johnson/McMullin?

Hillary is not getting the teaparty, birthers, single issue pro-life, single issue pro gun far right of the republican party that considers Trump to liberal from them.  The question: do they vote for Trump or stayhome/Castle/McMullin?

Hillary will win the Hispanic vote by a large margin.  Question is what will the turn out be.  Can she motivate enough of them to register to vote, go to the polls and overcome what "voter id" or other barriers the republicans can put in place to limit their turnout?  

Hillary will win the the African American voters that registered for the first time in 2008 so they could vote for Obama and have only voted twice in their life 2008 and 2012, can she get them to vote for a third time?

Will Trump be able to organize the "angry white guy" that is not registered to vote to register and vote?  

Look ... I'm far from a die hard Trump fan but I'm also far from bailing unless a better option comes along and it isn't Hillary.

Case in point.  Zero chance you are voting for Hillary.....but if you vote for McMullin or stay home that is a half a vote for her. 

[Spider-Dan]

As far as the middle class thing it comes down to politics. Republicans believe making it easier to do business helps everyone and Democrats believe making the rich pay for the poor helps everyone. Nothing new here.

But that cuts against the populist economic position you are ascribing to Trump; the position that's supposed to pull in disaffected blue-collar Rust Belt Democrats.  Remember, Trump is supposed to be against free trade (an anti-conservative position) because he wants to protect the jobs of the working class, which is not "making it easier to do business."

So if the argument is that Trump will fight against the moneyed interests to help the middle class (by blocking free trade globalization like TPP), it's tough to square that with Trump giving enormous tax cuts to the top earners.  If you're saying that Trump is likely to pull votes by promising trickle-down tax breaks and supply-side economics... that's a strategy to capture Rust Belt Republicans, not Rust Belt Democrats.

Look ... I'm far from a die hard Trump fan but I'm also far from bailing unless a better option comes along and it isn't Hillary.

It is difficult to hear statements like this from Republicans without hearing them really saying "and it isn't a Democrat."  I mean, you guys have been saying that Obama is a tyrant bent on destroying the republic for the last 7 years, and that he has been the worst president in the history of the nation.  Are we supposed to believe that if only it were the proud socialist Bernie Sanders in her place, you'd be lining up to pull the lever for him?

When your volume has been stuck at 10 for many years, it's hard to turn the volume up.

[MyGodWearsAHoodie]

It is difficult to hear statements like this from Republicans without hearing them really saying "and it isn't a Democrat."  I mean, you guys have been saying that Obama is a tyrant bent on destroying the republic for the last 7 years, and that he has been the worst president in the history of the nation.  Are we supposed to believe that if only it were the proud socialist Bernie Sanders in her place, you'd be lining up to pull the lever for him?

Doesn't matter HRC doesn't need to convince CF DolFan to vote for her to win.  If one out of five his type vote for Johnson, Castle or McMullin she wins a landslide.   

[Fau Teixeira]

Trump suggested today that if he were to lose the election the recourse his followers would have would be to assassinate hillary.

nice