It's official: Hillary vs. Trump

[Spider-Dan]

Hoodie, I don't see why the Republicans who have meekly submitted to Trump during this whole process would suddenly grow a spine and choose a third-party candidate who won 3 states or less.  House Republicans would be just as terrified of the backlash to turning on Trump as the rest of the Republicans everywhere else have been.

[pondwater]

I can't say that I really support Trump. However, I am anti-Hillary to the point of accepting Trump. Since the democrats will do anything to win, I have a creeping suspicion that Trump is a Trojan horse, but there are no other real options. Either way, to hell with the Clintons, fuck 'em both. We missed the boat with Ron Paul

[Tenshot13]

I can't say that I really support Trump. However, I am anti-Hillary to the point of accepting Trump. Since the democrats will do anything to win, I have a creeping suspicion that Trump is a Trojan horse, but there are no other real options. Either way, to hell with the Clintons, fuck 'em both. We missed the boat with Ron Paul

I don't usually agree with you, but this, I agree with you on all points, including the Ron Paul segment.

[pondwater]

I don't usually agree with you, but this, I agree with you on all points, including the Ron Paul segment.

To take it one step further. I would rather keep what we have for a third term in exchange for Hillary to disappear forever. It seems to me that our top elected officials keep getting worse and worse the older I get. And Hillary would be the worst yet.

Also, I like your disclaimer of me to avoid the flogging from the site democrats. However, in my defense I think that I'm just misunderstood around here. In fact me and quite a few members here(aside from the hardcore lefties) probably have a lot in common.

[Dave Gray]

I think that the GOP is fantastic at taking a politician's strengths and trying to turn them into weakness.  They hammer nonsensical bullshit over and over until it's true.  Remember when John Kerry, war hero, was dragged down for being a coward?

Now, they're painting the economy as a disaster and a state of disarray and ruin, when by all measurables, it's more stable and safe than "the good old days" that never really existed.

And among those, a 20 year smear campaign on Hillary being somehow incompetent and untrustworthy.  And perception is reality, I guess.  7 Benghazi hearings led to the same conclusion, yet here they still are, driving the point home at their convention.  Hillary is a compromising progressive who has been fighting for things conservatives hate for 20 years.  I get why the GOP hates her and doesn't care who she's running against.  It's just unfortunate that liberals have bought into that story as well.

Hillary is a sneaky politician -- I agree.  You do and say things you don't mean to get elected to office.  They all do this.  She may say she's against the TPP, but may really know we have to have it.  She said she was against gay marriage (as did Obama), because it was the only politically possible path.  And she's been doing this for 20 years.  But at the heart, she's helped creep the country in a direction I want.  She makes deals and compromises on things she doesn't really care too much about (but pretends to) in order to get things she really does.  This is just politics.  I have no room for idealism in the party.  The Bernie people are becoming the tea party of the left.  It's crazy to me, but whatever.

On the other hand, I think Trump is possibly a sociopath and has no real interest in governing anything...he just wants notoriety and fame and to fly around the world going to state dinners while someone else does the work.  I am not so worried as to his platform (I would be shaking in my boots from Ted Cruz), but I do legitimately fear him in the commander in chief role.

I am actually not that afraid of Trump, because it's not like he even has a platform to disagree with.  But I am afraid about what it says about us if we were to elect him.

[MyGodWearsAHoodie]

Hoodie, I don't see why the Republicans who have meekly submitted to Trump during this whole process would suddenly grow a spine and choose a third-party candidate who won 3 states or less.  House Republicans would be just as terrified of the backlash to turning on Trump as the rest of the Republicans everywhere else have been.

Not all of them.  But as long as Ileana Ros-Lehtinen, Fred Upton etc represent the margin that the republican hold in the house it could happen.  We aren't talking about needing the entire party to grow a spine just enough that when added to the dems become a majority.  Plus there are quite a few republicans who are really closer to the Libertarian party.

[Dave Gray]

One more thing, this idea of 3rd party talk is just silly and a legitimate waste of energy.  I don't even mean that it's just wasted breath, but it's a net negative.

If you want to change politics to bring up a 3rd party, that starts locally.  Get a libertarian-minded mayor...don't jump to the President.  You're bonkers if you think we're electing a non-2 party candidate at the Presidential level, unless there are rule changes that allow for tiered voting or something.  In addition, pushing for 3rd party candidates under the current system actually harms you ideals, because you're essentially kicking yourself out of the tent of the party that can win.  Bernie did exactly what he was supposed to.  He never had any legitimate shot of winning squat...ever.  And I voted for him!  But I voted for him to move the needle on the platform.  The GOP knew this and didn't attack him, but he wasn't prepared to discuss foreign policy or face any real, long-term scrutiny and attacks from the right -- it's in an un-electable, idealist position.  One that's important, but he was never in this to win it.  To think otherwise is naive.

And if those Bernie folks bail and the election is lost, they set themselves back and Bernie and his supporters are an albatross that will be completely ignored next time.  The idea that the Dems will become super liberal to appeal to the group that got what they wanted and still didn't vote for is just not how this stuff works.

As for Trump vs. true conservatives, it's just hard to apply any of the traditional political logic to him or his campaign.  I just have no idea what happens the GOP is he wins or if he loses.  I am hoping that Trump just gets spanked and the GOP rises from the ashes as a libertarian party, ditching anti-science and religious conservatism and becoming the party of small government and individual rights.  He's completely unpredictable, though, and any sane attempt to make sense of his campaign or its effects are impossible.

[Spider-Dan]

Not all of them.  But as long as Ileana Ros-Lehtinen, Fred Upton etc represent the margin that the republican hold in the house it could happen.  We aren't talking about needing the entire party to grow a spine just enough that when added to the dems become a majority.  Plus there are quite a few republicans who are really closer to the Libertarian party.

If you're talking about House Dems + #NeverTrump GOP picking the President, Hillary still makes more sense than Johnson.  Presuming Hillary wins a plurality (as in your scenario), it is more defensible for #NeverTrump GOPers to say that they were simply respecting the will of the people than to say that they jumped ship from Trump to Johnson because they just didn't like Trump.  (And I think convincing the entirety of House Dems to dump Hillary - after she won more votes than anyone else - is a bit more challenging than you are presuming.)

Any House Republican who didn't select Trump would get primaried either way, so ultimately it's really just whatever helps them sleep at night.

[pondwater]

Now, they're painting the economy as a disaster and a state of disarray and ruin, when by all measurables, it's more stable and safe than "the good old days" that never really existed.

We're on the verge of another economic meltdown. The Fed has only inflated another bubble when the old one popped. The thing about the current administration is that they are doing the same thing previous administrations have done. That's not an excuse, it means that these fools that we elect aren't learning from past mistakes.

Obamacare is a good example. The death spiral has begun. Companies are pulling out of the exchange because of massive losses. UHC and Humana, the 2 largest players are gone. Not to mention, premiums even with the tax subsidies are skyrocketing. So what happens now? The Dems want to keep it, but there is nothing to keep if there are no providers in the exchanges.

So in my opinion, we need to go a different direction. The politicians that we've been electing since I was born haven't done anything but lead us down this path of unsustainability. And Hillary will be no different. So if Trump is the only way to change shit for better or worse, so be it. Everyone complains about the Dolphins and mediocrity. What about our country and mediocrity? In life you have to take chances and accept risk to succeed. Scared money never wins.

[Tenshot13]

To take it one step further. I would rather keep what we have for a third term in exchange for Hillary to disappear forever. It seems to me that our top elected officials keep getting worse and worse the older I get. And Hillary would be the worst yet.

Also, I like your disclaimer of me to avoid the flogging from the site democrats. However, in my defense I think that I'm just misunderstood around here. In fact me and quite a few members here(aside from the hardcore lefties) probably have a lot in common.

Let me reiterate...I don't agree with how you say some of the stuff around here, which is huge when you want to get your point across. 

I'm a Republican, through and through, so the Dems here can flog away.  Shit, I'm used to it at this point...most Dems I know want to vilify Republicans like we are all self involved, narcissistic demons, while we call the Dems a bunch of bed wetting, bleeding heart pussies.  I've had my battles with the opposing party on this site, and I really don't care to keep talking to brick walls. 

[pondwater]

Let me reiterate...I don't agree with how you say some of the stuff around here.  A lot of hostility, which I personally don't mind, but don't expect people to take you seriously with it, especially here.  

I'm a Republican, through and through, so the Dems here can flog away.  Shit, I'm used to it at this point...most Dems I know want to vilify Republicans like we are all self involved, narcissistic demons, while we call the Dems a bunch of bed wetting, bleeding heart pussies.  I've had my battles with the opposing party on this site, and I really don't care to keep talking to brick walls.

Likewise, you will notice that I don't post much or argue with the career arguers on this site much anymore. Dems that argue and spin things around here will make you hostile, lol.....

[DaLittle B]

I'm an independent,registered that way,voted both ways...I like most everyone here,don't like either candidate.

Trump does scare me,someone that thin skinned on a power trip with our military,and stupid rhetoric.I feel the only thing Trump can make great is his own ego,in his imagination.His homophobic vice president choice doesn't help ease Trumps scariness for me....

I was pulling for Bernie Sanders to win the Democratic nomination,but not one of those Ahhh...He should still be the Nominee people.I love the,You're gonna pay more in taxes,but get more out of the money I'm paying in philosophy.

I will say,I get the anti establishment candidate angle,and even the anger of people that don't think the country is not going the way they think it should.Just Trump is the wrong candidate IMO.

I'm not a Clinton Supporter,but I'll vote for her...I admit, from a historical point (and over due IMO) it is cool the possibility of a Woman president...Shame it's Hilary Clinton..

A anti-science and religious conservatism and becoming the party of small government and individual rights. 

Add,Get rid of Any gun law,make it Illegal to EVER Pass another gun law, of the Republican party is what I'm surrounded by here...Our local,and state races is trying to Out Conservative each other.

[pondwater]

I'm not a Clinton Supporter,but I'll vote for her...I admit, from a historical point (and over due IMO) it is cool the possibility of a Woman president...Shame it's Hilary Clinton..

It's the "let's make history" crowd. I had people say that silly shit to me for Obama's first election. And now they are saying it for Hillary. A good majority of people pick who to vote for to "make history" instead of fixing the problems. The first black, woman, gay, or transgender president doesn't mean a god damn thing in itself. So while the possibility of a woman president is a good thing. Voting for any old lump of shit(Hillary) just because it's female and it's "making history" is a mistake of epic magnitude.

[Fau Teixeira]

Trump just went on TV and in so many words asked Russia to perform espionage on american citizens.

You seriously couldn't make this shit up if you tried. This guy shouldn't even be eligible for a security clearance. Much less be the president.

[Dave Gray]

Trump just went on TV and in so many words asked Russia to perform espionage on american citizens.

You seriously couldn't make this shit up if you tried. This guy shouldn't even be eligible for a security clearance. Much less be the president.

I just saw this and came here.  Honestly...what the fuck?  It's like I just can't believe it, day after day.