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Author Topic: It's official: Hillary vs. Trump  (Read 79437 times)
Spider-Dan
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« Reply #45 on: July 27, 2016, 07:22:25 pm »

I think you underestimate how many "well regulated militias" will come into existence.
I'm counting on it.

The people who pass the laws restricting gun ownership to "well-regulated militias" will be the same people doing the regulating of said militias.  So I anticipate a scenario not unlike how we handle fully-automatic weapons now; as gun enthusiasts frequently point out, a Tommy gun isn't illegal today, just strictly regulated.

I have long held the position that the lesson to be learned from the separate histories of alcohol and tobacco in this country is that simply banning a thing is ultimately less effective than dumping obscene amounts of taxes on it and slowly increasing the restrictions so as to make it an incredible hassle.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2016, 07:30:01 pm by Spider-Dan » Logged

BuccaneerBrad
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« Reply #46 on: July 27, 2016, 09:10:44 pm »

Trump was never accused of being racist until he decided to run as a Republican.   Both Bill and Hillary have previously been accused of locking up more blacks in order to fund the private prisons
« Last Edit: July 27, 2016, 10:32:04 pm by BuccaneerBrad » Logged

Fau Teixeira
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« Reply #47 on: July 27, 2016, 10:00:10 pm »

it's not coincidence that his announcement to run as a republican was delivered via a speech that declared that mexicans were rapists and criminals .. i really wonder whether it was the rapists and criminals speech or the fact that he ran as a republican that brought out the racist label.
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Spider-Dan
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« Reply #48 on: July 27, 2016, 11:21:09 pm »

Trump was never accused of being racist until he decided to run as a Republican.
He wasn't accused of being racist until he started saying racist things.

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Both Bill and Hillary have previously been accused of locking up more blacks in order to fund the private prisons
I doubt Trump (or any other Republican candidate, for that matter) plans to release a significant number of black prisoners, or change the laws to reduce their incarceration.  So I don't think this is a very relevant point.
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pondwater
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« Reply #49 on: July 28, 2016, 04:47:58 am »

I have long held the position that the lesson to be learned from the separate histories of alcohol and tobacco in this country is that simply banning a thing is ultimately less effective than dumping obscene amounts of taxes on it and slowly increasing the restrictions so as to make it an incredible hassle.
Taxing and regulating a right? The Heller decision has already affirmed this right. If the court were to reverse itself, I think the repercussions for the liberals would be insurmountable.
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CF DolFan
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« Reply #50 on: July 28, 2016, 09:10:01 am »

it's not coincidence that his announcement to run as a republican was delivered via a speech that declared that mexicans were rapists and criminals .. i really wonder whether it was the rapists and criminals speech or the fact that he ran as a republican that brought out the racist label.
Why do you keep saying this? Take a phrase out of anyone's speech and you can paint them for however you like.  He said they aren't sending their best and went on to say that many are rapists and criminals AS HAS BEEN DOCUMENTED when they commit crimes and murder people here.

Trump sucks at speaking because he doesn't run his answers through a politically correct speech writer and so many times he has to clarify.  I think he says some really stupid stuff but many of his points are legit. Many people love that he says stupid things because it means he is being honest about how he feels. I can't say I agree with that but it is refreshing to know that he will do what he thinks is best regardless of who is lining his pockets. Just like Bill Clinton ... Trump's personal life with women has been questionable but his track record of business supports both women and minorities.

On another but similar note ...  It pains me that our country is so divided. Not since the late 60's has that been the case. I remember many elections, including the one where we were terrified of Reagan and the ones where I voted for slick Willy that people had different views but were not so spread out. For instance Trump is saying some of the same things that Clinton and his wife did (leaving out the rhetoric of supposedly calling all Mexicans criminals and rapists) but people are pretending that to put up a wall is the craziest idea to ever happen. Mrs. Clinton wanted a fence. Why is it hard for people to recognize today that we need border security and job protection against undocumented aliens, just as we did when Bill ran, other than political correctness? Either way, like Dave said I fear that we continue the trend of having to either be extreme right or left and the separation continues. 
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Phishfan
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« Reply #51 on: July 28, 2016, 09:20:22 am »

I'm counting on it.

The people who pass the laws restricting gun ownership to "well-regulated militias" will be the same people doing the regulating of said militias.  So I anticipate a scenario not unlike how we handle fully-automatic weapons now; as gun enthusiasts frequently point out, a Tommy gun isn't illegal today, just strictly regulated.

I have long held the position that the lesson to be learned from the separate histories of alcohol and tobacco in this country is that simply banning a thing is ultimately less effective than dumping obscene amounts of taxes on it and slowly increasing the restrictions so as to make it an incredible hassle.

You think getting alcohol and tobacco is a hassle? More importantly, you think the gun lobby is that much less powerful than either of these?
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CF DolFan
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« Reply #52 on: July 28, 2016, 09:56:04 am »

I know this is kind of random but I don't think we put enough emphasis on respecting authority and as such we have become a much more damaged society. Sadly I know my generation was big into the F authority movement but hindsight seems to suggest that isn't the best idea.  I mean we don't even respect the office of Presidency (didn't under Bush or now Obama), the flag, the National Anthem, we don't respect police officers, clergy and we don't respect the differences of our brothers and sisters. Instead we constantly point to our differences and condemn anyone who isn't like us as evil.

A whole racist movement BLM is based on blacks being killed by cops when if fact just as many whites die by police. A black man says that all people should respect police and just put your hands on the wheel until the officers asks you do differently and suddenly they are an Uncle Tom. Really? I mean I absolutely taught my kids to do that when they were learning to drive. I'm not sure why we don't make that a procedural law.

Everyone should be concerned with unjustified killing by police but like in Baltimore, society is backing feelings and not facts and it only exacerbates the lack of respect of authority. I don't see how it will ever get better when we can't even agree to respect authority.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2016, 10:12:02 am by CF DolFan » Logged

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Spider-Dan
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« Reply #53 on: July 28, 2016, 12:00:59 pm »

Take a phrase out of anyone's speech and you can paint them for however you like.
It's not like this one time Trump said Mexicans are rapists, then he apologized for such an offensive statement.  Trump won the GOP primary specifically because he refused to apologize and, in fact, doubled down by saying increasingly insane things... things that the GOP traditionally would have crucified any politician for uttering.

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Trump sucks at speaking because he doesn't run his answers through a politically correct speech writer and so many times he has to clarify.
No, he sucks at speaking because he believes the ignorant and offensive things he says.

I also find this blame of political correctness to be puzzling.  It is as if conservatives think that of course everyone knows Mexicans are rapists or we should beat up protesters or POWs deserve to be mocked or David Duke isn't such a bad guy, but because of this darned Political Correctness we have to pretend we are against all those things.

When you blame Political Correctness, at the core you are saying that Trump is just saying out loud what lots of people are thinking.  I humbly submit that the people who think we should intentionally target and kill the innocent family members of terrorists deserve every bit of criticism directed their way.

I know this is kind of random but I don't think we put enough emphasis on respecting authority and as such we have become a much more damaged society.
To an extent, I agree.  I was shocked and confused that private citizens were allowed to point guns at federal law enforcement authorities, and use the threat of force to take over and occupy federal property for a month... and in both cases, they were treated like kids having a backyard campout.

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A whole racist movement BLM is based on blacks being killed by cops when if fact just as many whites die by police. A black man says that all people should respect police and just put your hands on the wheel until the officers asks you do differently and suddenly they are an Uncle Tom.
A black man with a lawful license to carry a gun informed a police officer that he was armed, as he is supposed to.  He attempted to comply with the officer's instructions to provide his driver's license and registration, and was instantly shot dead.  It doesn't matter if we comply with their orders, we still get killed anyway.
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Spider-Dan
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« Reply #54 on: July 28, 2016, 12:04:26 pm »

You think getting alcohol and tobacco is a hassle? More importantly, you think the gun lobby is that much less powerful than either of these?

- I think using tobacco is becoming a pretty big hassle outside of your own home
- I think the alcohol industry dwarfs the gun industry... but I don't really think that matters, because the major alcohol fight already happened
- I think peak Big Tobacco was more powerful than the gun lobby is now
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Tenshot13
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« Reply #55 on: July 28, 2016, 04:32:27 pm »

1.) I'm still waiting for these racist things he's said.  I see a lot of, "he said racist stuff" and a lot of paraphrasing.  I want to see actual quotes.  Other than the Muslim comment, it looks like a bunch of left spin to me.

2.) Someone explain why Hillary is so great by the way.  All I hear is Trump is so horrible, not WHY Hillary is great.  See if you can do it without bashing Trump.  Convince me.
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CF DolFan
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« Reply #56 on: July 28, 2016, 04:37:29 pm »

It's not like this one time Trump said Mexicans are rapists, then he apologized for such an offensive statement.  Trump won the GOP primary specifically because he refused to apologize and, in fact, doubled down by saying increasingly insane things... things that the GOP traditionally would have crucified any politician for uttering.
No, he sucks at speaking because he believes the ignorant and offensive things he says.
What has he said that makes him racist? Apologize ... No but I've heard him clarify his remarks numerous times.

I also find this blame of political correctness to be puzzling.  It is as if conservatives think that of course everyone knows Mexicans are rapists or we should beat up protesters or POWs deserve to be mocked or David Duke isn't such a bad guy, but because of this darned Political Correctness we have to pretend we are against all those things.
Obviously you picked things that are obviously not political correctness. I was just as shocked as you when originally Trump didn't denounce the KKK. I'm glad he adamantly does now.  

How about the fact it's politically correct to pretend Islam is a religion of peace or even to a larger extent ... pretend radical Islamism isn't a major issue with our security and emotional well being of our children. How about the fact Democratic politicians turn their back to the fact BLM isn't a racist organization or that police aren't always in the wrong? Where are the apoligies to the Baltimore police officers whos lives were destroyed. How bout the Ferguson police? It's politically correct to pretend that thugs were just good young black men who were innocent victims. Those kind of things don't sit well with most people. Unfortunately most people aren't as vocal as the paid victims and those seeking the spotlight.  

When you blame Political Correctness, at the core you are saying that Trump is just saying out loud what lots of people are thinking.  I humbly submit that the people who think we should intentionally target and kill the innocent family members of terrorists deserve every bit of criticism directed their way.
I don't know that I disagree with this.

To an extent, I agree.  I was shocked and confused that private citizens were allowed to point guns at federal law enforcement authorities, and use the threat of force to take over and occupy federal property for a month... and in both cases, they were treated like kids having a backyard campout.
That's kind of dramatic as people ended up dying when in fact that did happen. As well, I guess it's OK to shut down traffic let alone while stopping ambulances and people like medical staff from reaching their jobs?

A black man with a lawful license to carry a gun informed a police officer that he was armed, as he is supposed to.  He attempted to comply with the officer's instructions to provide his driver's license and registration, and was instantly shot dead.  It doesn't matter if we comply with their orders, we still get killed anyway.
My understanding was the officer told him to stop several times and yet he continued to go for whatever. It could have been his license or it could have been his gun. There is video so I am sure it will come out in court.
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Dave Gray
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« Reply #57 on: July 28, 2016, 04:48:13 pm »

What weapons are more deadly than they were in the 1950s? How are they more deadly? I'm a weapons guy and I don't see your logic. Sounds like media hype to me. 

I'm not arbitrarily picking the 50s.

When the law was written, owning a musket to protect your farm made sense.  I don't think that the same rules apply to current weapons...or at least they shoudn't.  If you do, that's fine -- but I don't.

And everything I consider to be things I would want to help the problem are going to be stymied (understandably), because it's a constitutional right.

And I'm tired of it, so I want to repeal the amendment.
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Spider-Dan
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« Reply #58 on: July 28, 2016, 05:38:58 pm »

I'm still waiting for these racist things he's said.  I see a lot of, "he said racist stuff" and a lot of paraphrasing.  I want to see actual quotes.
Trump: Mexican American Judge Has an 'Absolute Conflict'
In an interview, Mr. Trump said U.S. District Judge Gonzalo Curiel had “an absolute conflict” in presiding over the litigation given that he was “of Mexican heritage” and a member of a Latino lawyers’ association. Mr. Trump said the background of the judge, who was born in Indiana to Mexican immigrants, was relevant because of his campaign stance against illegal immigration and his pledge to seal the southern U.S. border. “I’m building a wall. It’s an inherent conflict of interest,” Mr. Trump said.

In other words, Trump said that an Indiana-born judge cannot fairly adjudicate Trump's trial because of his Mexican heritage.  As Republican Speaker of the House Paul Ryan put it, it was "the textbook definition of a racist comment."

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Someone explain why Hillary is so great by the way.  All I hear is Trump is so horrible, not WHY Hillary is great.  See if you can do it without bashing Trump.
Given that you are a Republican, the reasons I would give to explain why I think Hillary would be a good President are likely at odds with your political priorities; things like protecting abortion rights, expanding Obamacare, pushing for more climate change legislation, helping to reduce the number of guns in this country, providing a path to citizenship for productive illegal immigrants, etc.  So I'm not sure how useful such a list would be.
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« Reply #59 on: July 28, 2016, 06:54:39 pm »

Trump: Mexican American Judge Has an 'Absolute Conflict'
In an interview, Mr. Trump said U.S. District Judge Gonzalo Curiel had “an absolute conflict” in presiding over the litigation given that he was “of Mexican heritage” and a member of a Latino lawyers’ association. Mr. Trump said the background of the judge, who was born in Indiana to Mexican immigrants, was relevant because of his campaign stance against illegal immigration and his pledge to seal the southern U.S. border. “I’m building a wall. It’s an inherent conflict of interest,” Mr. Trump said.

In other words, Trump said that an Indiana-born judge cannot fairly adjudicate Trump's trial because of his Mexican heritage.  As Republican Speaker of the House Paul Ryan put it, it was "the textbook definition of a racist comment."
Given that you are a Republican, the reasons I would give to explain why I think Hillary would be a good President are likely at odds with your political priorities; things like protecting abortion rights, expanding Obamacare, pushing for more climate change legislation, helping to reduce the number of guns in this country, providing a path to citizenship for productive illegal immigrants, etc.  So I'm not sure how useful such a list would be.
Is that the most racist thing he has done since he started running?  Kind of a weak argument, but whatever. 

Fair enough on your Hillary comments. 
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