"Free speech" and engaging those we disagree with

[Spider-Dan]

Because by limiting their free enterprise range it helps America instead of just one person. I get what you are saying but it's not the same thing.

I would argue that it is exactly the same thing: you are proposing that someone sacrifice personal gain because it will help out substantial numbers of other Americans.  This is no different than raising the minimum wage.

This is the contradiction that Trump's "populism" has caused; it's easy for me, as a leftist, to argue for higher minimum wage and discouragement of offshoring because I truly believe it's a good idea for the government to step in and regulate the market to help balance things out for the working man.  But it makes no sense for a free-market conservative to say that the gov't shouldn't cut into private profits by raising the minimum wage, and then immediately turn around and say that the gov't SHOULD cut into private profits by penalizing offshoring.

[Spider-Dan]

I'm just giving my opinion. Maybe it's wrong, maybe it's not. At the end of my post I asked for your opinion about why black people in general seem to be facing the same issues all over the world. You didn't offer your opinion in a mutual exchange of ideas.

That's because you keep insisting that I "just answer the question" when I disagree with the premise of the question in the first place.

I reject your basic premise that blacks everywhere live in a state of war, corruption, poverty, and/or slavery because people of all races are in those conditions.  And to the extent that it's more common for black people, it just so happens that it's in a) former slaveowning countries with a well-documented history of institutional racism or b) former European colonies with a well-documented history of institutional racism.  Which comprises almost every country in the world with a sizable black population.

There are a lot of former European colonies in Central and South America that are not particularly better off than African countries; does this mean that Latinos have the same racial shortcomings as blacks?  I'm more inclined to say that when a foreign military power drops in, pillages your country's resources for a century or so and then pulls up stakes, you aren't likely to develop the same robust industrial base as the country that your resources were being shipped off to.  And I don't think it's a coincidence that the two of the biggest economic powers in Asia (China and Japan) just happen to be two countries that escaped the Age of Imperialism intact.

You replied and tried to "assess" or "assume" that I was implying some racist intent. You don't seem to be able to have a rational discussion without tossing out the race card on every post.

I'm still waiting for you to offer an explanation (other than "race") for why multiple groups of black people that have nothing else in common all live in these terrible conditions.  (And no, "I'm just giving my opinion" isn't an explanation.)

Furthermore: if you want to avoid people tossing out the race card, you should probably refrain from asking why all black people around the globe suffer from [problem].  It's ridiculous for me to ask a person, "Why are Jews in every country around the world are so consumed with money?" and then complain about THEM playing the anti-Semitism card.

[Phishfan]

I have no desire to pay $15 for a freaking hamburger so some dude who dropped out of school at 14 and doesn't want to work can afford an apartment.

Here's the rub, giving that guy a living wage isn't what will cost you that $15, it is the over payment at the top of the chain that isn't going to be given up by the executives in order to ensure people are actually able to live off the money they earn.

[CF DolFan]

Here's the rub, giving that guy a living wage isn't what will cost you that $15, it is the over payment at the top of the chain that isn't going to be given up by the executives in order to ensure people are actually able to live off the money they earn.

Really. So the guy who goes to college and busts his hump deserves to make less just so a guy who chose to do as little as possible makes "a living wage" at a job that is meant for high schoolers and retirees? That will never make sense to me.  I have no problem helping people who are trying or who aren't able to but I don't believe in enabling people who aren't trying. I've had to deal with this in my personal life too.  It's even a Biblical principle ... not that it matters to anyone on this board.

2 Thessalonians 3 ... we worked night and day, laboring and toiling so that we would not be a burden to any of you. 9We did this, not because we do not have the right to such help, but in order to offer ourselves as a model for you to imitate. 10For even when we were with you, we gave you this rule: “The one who is unwilling to work shall not eat.”

[Phishfan]

Really. So the guy who goes to college and busts his hump deserves to make less just so a guy who chose to do as little as possible makes "a living wage" at a job that is meant for high schoolers and retirees?

You are making sweeping generalizations because we both know when you walk through a retail store or restaurant that high schoolers and retirees are not the bulk of their workforce, especially since Wal-Mart is the largest employer in the U.S. outside the federal government. You also assume that these people are doing as little as possible.

Maybe this stat can help illustrate my point.

In fact, CEOs were paid 273 times more than their average employee in 2012, according to a study by the Economic Policy Institute. Oftentimes, these highly paid CEOs can count on their hefty paychecks whether their companies are doing well or poorly.

http://www.businessinsider.com/15-highest-paid-ceos-in-america-2013-10?op=1/#-peter-s-kraus-alliancebernstein-1

I'm not saying that everyone needs equal pay, it just needs to balance out a bit better.

Interestingly, your burger example is a pretty good one. McDonald's gave their CEO a 368% pay raise a couple years ago. How high was your last raise? How long since you had a raise? I guarantee the average McDonald's worker has troubling answers to those questions.

McDonald's makes that 273 times number look small with a CEO making 644 times more.

[Sunstroke]

2 Thessalonians 3 ... we worked night and day, laboring and toiling so that we would not be a burden to any of you. 9We did this, not because we do not have the right to such help, but in order to offer ourselves as a model for you to imitate. 10For even when we were with you, we gave you this rule: “The one who is unwilling to work shall not eat.”

"Every job from the heart is, ultimately, of equal value. The nurse injects the syringe; the writer slides the pen; the farmer plows the dirt; the comedian draws the laughter. Monetary income is the perfect deceiver of a man's true worth.”

~ Criss Jami

[CF DolFan]

"Every job from the heart is, ultimately, of equal value. The nurse injects the syringe; the writer slides the pen; the farmer plows the dirt; the comedian draws the laughter. Monetary income is the perfect deceiver of a man's true worth.”

~ Criss Jami

I actually don't disagree with that. The guy who chooses to not do a job that would support a family is intrinsically worth just as much as the CEO of the company he works for but that has nothing to do with deserving equal pay or pay on scale. That is dictated by market.

If CEO at company A is making less than company B then guess where he is heading the first chance he gets. The same with the fella asking for if you want fries with that. He will go to burger place number 2 if the pay is better.  You can't compare to different positions but you can compare two different companies with the same positions.

Why are these people being replaced by stand alone kiosks? Because it isn't that difficult to do and requires no skills. I have yet to see one CEO being replaced by a robot.

[Phishfan]

Why are these people being replaced by stand alone kiosks?

Because it allows the CEO to get a 368% pay raise. None of that saved money went into the pockets of the employees who are still on site.

[Spider-Dan]

CF, I still don't understand how you can say "Let the free market decide what each man is paid according to his value" (a perfectly logical position, even if I disagree with it!) and then turn and say "Let's force companies to be less profitable by making them keep jobs in America!"

It's exactly the same thing: you are reducing corporate profits (e.g. CEO pay) by handing out overpaying jobs to people who (according to the free market) do not deserve them, using the justification that it's better for everyone as a whole.

Is this simply a case of "Trump said it, therefore I agree with it"?  It is completely inconsistent with free-market ideology.

[DaLittle B]

On one hand,I'd like to interject,but I have no desire to go down this rabbit hole.These two threads here have me all confused on what's being argued now...Excuse me if I say 1 post,and it's in the other thread.

To my soapbox....
I don't believe in the (excuse the term) Bible thinking, it's true 2000,1500,500 200 or 100 yrs ago,it still works today.MONEY/Profit margin dictates,influences,works the system,changes the system,who can,or can't,why,when,how,we do anything in this country today.I'm NOT saying it's a new thing, ,but the way it's happening now,to the level,and way it's happening....Is bat fucking shit crazy stupid. Regardless of the issue,or what side you stand...We the people are the ones that are going to get T-Totally fucked,and we'll e the last to realize it.

End soap box...Have a nice day.

[pondwater]

That's because you keep insisting that I "just answer the question" when I disagree with the premise of the question in the first place.

I reject your basic premise that blacks everywhere live in a state of war, corruption, poverty, and/or slavery because people of all races are in those conditions.  And to the extent that it's more common for black people, it just so happens that it's in a) former slaveowning countries with a well-documented history of institutional racism or b) former European colonies with a well-documented history of institutional racism.  Which comprises almost every country in the world with a sizable black population.

There are a lot of former European colonies in Central and South America that are not particularly better off than African countries; does this mean that Latinos have the same racial shortcomings as blacks?  I'm more inclined to say that when a foreign military power drops in, pillages your country's resources for a century or so and then pulls up stakes, you aren't likely to develop the same robust industrial base as the country that your resources were being shipped off to.  And I don't think it's a coincidence that the two of the biggest economic powers in Asia (China and Japan) just happen to be two countries that escaped the Age of Imperialism intact.

So you're saying that black people are in their situation because of other people? And if that's what you're saying, would you agree or disagree that personal choices in life play a bigger part in where you end up rather than what other people do?

I'm still waiting for you to offer an explanation (other than "race") for why multiple groups of black people that have nothing else in common all live in these terrible conditions.  (And no, "I'm just giving my opinion" isn't an explanation.)

Furthermore: if you want to avoid people tossing out the race card, you should probably refrain from asking why all black people around the globe suffer from [problem].  It's ridiculous for me to ask a person, "Why are Jews in every country around the world are so consumed with money?" and then complain about THEM playing the anti-Semitism card.

I can't give you an explanation. Just like I can't tell you if god exists or not. I can only offer my opinion on the subject matter. I can tell you that the questions that I asked were not racist questions, they were racial questions.

Why do blacks excel at sports? Why do Asians excel on tests? Why are white males the most convicted rapists? There is nothing inherently racist about those questions. All races have positives and negatives. Are they genetic? Are they learned? Are they a result of social pressures? So, if in fact a good majority of the Jewish community has a fascination with money. Then there is nothing ANTI Semitic about asking the question why they are like that. I haven't said anything derogatory about anyone. I'm simply illustrating a point of view that you don't like.

[Fau Teixeira]

I lean left because i think that a social contract whether explicit or implied exists.  Free market is fine in theory, but we don't live in a theory, we live in reality, and like it or not a completely 100% free market capitalistic society doesn't work and has never worked.

I prefer to be less idealistic and more realistic in policies. Start with what services you think should and should not be the purview of the government. Then find an equitable way of providing them and paying for them.

[Spider-Dan]

So you're saying that black people are in their situation because of other people?

Every single person on this planet is in their situation because of other people.  Every single person living in this country that's not a Native American is here because of other people.

I do not subscribe to the theory that the reason why Jenna Bush and Chelsea Clinton are wealthy and a schoolteacher in northern Idaho is not is because the former are that much smarter and harder working.  Privilege matters.

And if that's what you're saying, would you agree or disagree that personal choices in life play a bigger part in where you end up rather than what other people do?

This is like asking if air plays "a bigger part" in human life than water.  I mean, you can only live for a few minutes without air, whereas you can go days without water, so... I guess so?  But water is still incredibly important.

I can't give you an explanation. Just like I can't tell you if god exists or not. I can only offer my opinion on the subject matter.

...wait, what?

If you cannot offer any explanation (that isn't "race") for the problem you describe, how can you possibly hope to solve it?  You said that "You can't fix a problem if you don't acknowledge it," but you damned sure can't fix a problem if you can't even guess what the cause is.

I can tell you that the questions that I asked were not racist questions, they were racial questions.

Why do blacks excel at sports? Why do Asians excel on tests? Why are white males the most convicted rapists?

Do blacks in Russia excel at sports?
Does the entire native population of Thailand excel at tests?
Do white males have the highest rate of rape convictions in Egypt?
If the answer to the above is "no," asking why these "facts" are true is, indeed, racist.  You are applying stereotypes to entire groups of people across the world based specifically on their race.

[pondwater]

Every single person on this planet is in their situation because of other people.  Every single person living in this country that's not a Native American is here because of other people.

I do not subscribe to the theory that the reason why Jenna Bush and Chelsea Clinton are wealthy and a schoolteacher in northern Idaho is not is because the former are that much smarter and harder working.  Privilege matters.
This is like asking if air plays "a bigger part" in human life than water.  I mean, you can only live for a few minutes without air, whereas you can go days without water, so... I guess so?  But water is still incredibly important.

Of course privilege matters. However, just like race, it's not something most people choose and shouldn't be thrown up as a default reason why some people do better than others. Obama achieved the highest office in the country. Is it because he was more privileged than you or because he is smarter than you? Ultimately where someone ends up in life is of their own doing. Blaming someone else for your situation will not get you any closer to where you want to be in life.

...wait, what?

If you cannot offer any explanation (that isn't "race") for the problem you describe, how can you possibly hope to solve it?  You said that "You can't fix a problem if you don't acknowledge it," but you damned sure can't fix a problem if you can't even guess what the cause is.

Because I'm not black and ultimately it's not my problem to fix. Just like my next door neighbor who quits his job and then complains that he can't pay his mortgage. I can only give my opinion. I do know that "white privilege" isn't the reason why black people in general are facing the issues they are facing.

Do blacks in Russia excel at sports?
Does the entire native population of Thailand excel at tests?
Do white males have the highest rate of rape convictions in Egypt?
If the answer to the above is "no," asking why these "facts" are true is, indeed, racist.  You are applying stereotypes to entire groups of people across the world based specifically on their race.

Like a liberal you are caught up in the emotional aspect rather than the logical aspect.

What people call “stereotypes” are what scientists call “empirical generalizations,” and they are the foundation of scientific theory. That’s what scientists do; they make generalizations. Many stereotypes are empirical generalizations with a statistical basis and thus on average tend to be true. If they are not true, they wouldn’t be stereotypes. The only problem with stereotypes and empirical generalizations is that they are not always true for all individual cases. They are generalizations, not invariant laws. There are always individual exceptions to stereotypes and empirical generalizations. The danger lies in applying the empirical generalizations to individual cases, which may or may not be exceptions. But these individual exceptions do not invalidate the generalizations.

Now, you as a Black American. Tell me what you think the cause of why blacks across the globe face the issues they face. Better yet, maybe some solutions about how to go about fixing those problems. Because no matter how much black people cry racism, scream white privilege, and shout "not fair". Those things aren't going to change. Sorry fella, life's not fair and it never will be. I didn't choose to be white. You didn't choose to be black. But we do have everyday choices that affect our outcome. Blaming others will only hold people down through lack of action. So Spider, aside from you thinking I'm a racist, bigot, and dummy. What useful information can you add to the discussion about what black people can control to fix the problems that face the majority of black people in general?

[CF DolFan]

On one hand,I'd like to interject,but I have no desire to go down this rabbit hole.These two threads here have me all confused on what's being argued now...Excuse me if I say 1 post,and it's in the other thread.

To my soapbox....
I don't believe in the (excuse the term) Bible thinking, it's true 2000,1500,500 200 or 100 yrs ago,it still works today.MONEY/Profit margin dictates,influences,works the system,changes the system,who can,or can't,why,when,how,we do anything in this country today.I'm NOT saying it's a new thing, ,but the way it's happening now,to the level,and way it's happening....Is bat fucking shit crazy stupid. Regardless of the issue,or what side you stand...We the people are the ones that are going to get T-Totally fucked,and we'll e the last to realize it.

End soap box...Have a nice day.

And that my dear friend B is exactly how I used to think. Fortunately enough times God has revealed to me on my journey that if He said it then it is true regardless of how I think. I used to think a lot of things in the Bible made no sense in today's world and was subsequently proven wrong. Eventually I realized that even if I don't undestand it I must trust the One who does.

With that said my personal experience of busting my hump to set a better life for my kids ... even before I had a wife and kids ... is what drives my personal feelings on the subject. I have friends I grew up with who have been in and out of prison and others who live week to week for their next drug of choice. They had the same opportunities I did but now I have two kids in college, a wonderful 26 and counting year marriage and a fairly successful career. I did it with a GED because I never graduated high school and started working full time at 17 as a laborer. It's out there for anyone who wants  to work for it.