Men taking over Women's sports

[Spider-Dan]

Spider, How would you feel about a white person dying their skin claiming they "identity" as African American and then compete for an NACCP scholarship?

You're essentially talking about claimed "transracial" people like the aforementioned Rachel Dolezal.  In her specific case, I didn't really have a problem with her because 1) there are a lot of people who "look white" but provably have black heritage, and 2) she was basically just doing what she could to try to help minorities, not claiming minority status to try to gain personal advantage.   There are people who were really upset about her racial appropriation, but I was not one of them.

I do know that Dolezal is a favorite target of transgender opponents to conflate transgender and transracial, and I also know that leftists who had a big problem with her explained why they didn't think that was the case.  Since I didn't particularly care about that example, I didn't read up enough on either side's arguments to form a solid opinion, so my current position on the subject of "transracial" candidates is roughly, "I haven't yet looked at it enough to arrive at an informed conclusion."

However, I can already tell you that trans women athletes wouldn't qualify as "claiming minority status to try to gain personal advantage" in my book.  Sports in our country - or at least, the sports that we are talking about, because it doesn't make sense to complain about trans women in co-ed sports - are segregated by gender, and so a trans female that wants to play sports is forced to choose: does she join a male league, essentially working against her own efforts to be identified as female, or does she join a female league and be criticized for cheating even if she isn't particularly good?  I don't see either of those choices as gaining personal advantage.

[MyGodWearsAHoodie]

Yeah I know it is an old thread but, Gavin Hubbard noe Laurel is a perfect example of why this is wrong.  He was a very good but not elite male weight lifter, so he switched to the women's division and with his male skeleton and muscle structure dominated over legitimate females.

[CF DolFan]

There won't be any sports for women in the near future if we keep worrying about being politically correct. This is just crazy to me. At a time when we are supposed to be supporting women it seems we are actually holding them back.

https://nypost.com/2015/10/01/most-of-players-on-irans-womens-team-are-men-official/

[Spider-Dan]

Yeah I know it is an old thread but, Gavin Hubbard noe Laurel is a perfect example of why this is wrong.  He was a very good but not elite male weight lifter, so he switched to the women's division and with his male skeleton and muscle structure dominated over legitimate females.

This is a fair example.  So Hubbard was competing as a weightlifter, and decided to undergo gender transition but continue to compete.

First off, I am going to say that I do not believe Hubbard decided to upend an entire life and undergo a gender transition solely to gain advantage in weightlifting contests.  If you think she did, then say so and we can simply leave this at agree to disagree.  That said, it seems that when that decision was made, three options are available:

1) continue to compete as a male, undermining your own attempts to transition to the life of a woman
2) choose to compete as a female, be branded as a cheater, and have much of the public completely disregard your accomplishments
3) quit competing altogether with the implicit understanding that there simply is no place in gender-segregated competition for male-to-female transgender athletes

Which of these options do you think is least objectionable, and why?

[fyo]

1) continue to compete as a male, undermining your own attempts to transition to the life of a woman
2) choose to compete as a female, be branded as a cheater, and have much of the public completely disregard your accomplishments
3) quit competing altogether with the implicit understanding that there simply is no place in gender-segregated competition for male-to-female transgender athletes

Which of these options do you think is least objectionable, and why?

How about we just define "men's competition" as those individuals that have a Y chromosome and "women's competition" as those individuals who do not?

(Yes, that covers all the rare variants like XXY, X0, XXX, etc).

If you want to be stupidly PC, feel free to invent a pair of new words for "men" and "women" in this context.

[Phishfan]

They probably have words already,  we just don't know them

[MyGodWearsAHoodie]

This is a fair example.  So Hubbard was competing as a weightlifter, and decided to undergo gender transition but continue to compete.

First off, I am going to say that I do not believe Hubbard decided to upend an entire life and undergo a gender transition solely to gain advantage in weightlifting contests.  If you think she did, then say so and we can simply leave this at agree to disagree.  That said, it seems that when that decision was made, three options are available:

1) continue to compete as a male, undermining your own attempts to transition to the life of a woman
2) choose to compete as a female, be branded as a cheater, and have much of the public completely disregard your accomplishments
3) quit competing altogether with the implicit understanding that there simply is no place in gender-segregated competition for male-to-female transgender athletes

Which of these options do you think is least objectionable, and why?

I believe  he had four choice

4. Remain male.

And i am okay with all of the options except #2.

[Fau Teixeira]

During transitions don't people undergo hormone treatments that put their body chemistry more in line with the gender they're transitioning to ?
that would have a major impact of lots of stuff .. including muscle mass and bone elasticity.

i don't really have an opinion on the 3 choices presented .. i guess 3 is really the reality of the current situation if you're going to cut out all the bs. secondarily #1 is the best option .. as long as you perform drug tests to account for supplemented hormones.  #2 is the least fair to all other competitors that have a different genetic structure altogether.

[MyGodWearsAHoodie]

During transitions don't people undergo hormone treatments that put their body chemistry more in line with the gender they're transitioning to ?
that would have a major impact of lots of stuff .. including muscle mass and bone elasticity.

i don't really have an opinion on the 3 choices presented .. i guess 3 is really the reality of the current situation if you're going to cut out all the bs. secondarily #1 is the best option .. as long as you perform drug tests to account for supplemented hormones.  #2 is the least fair to all other competitors that have a different genetic structure altogether.

It will effect muscle to a limited extent, but your bone structure isn't going away.  I guess if you underwent the change when a toddler but a 25 yo is formed and not going to become equal.

[Spider-Dan]

I believe  he had four choice

4. Remain male.

Is this from the "Why don't you just not be gay?" school of thought?

I wasn't evaluating lifestyle choices, I was evaluating competitive choices.

And i am okay with all of the options except #2.

Outside of the deep personal degradation inherent in #1, I'm not sure how practical it is.  If a pro athlete was a cross-dresser, and chose to openly do so in public, how well would that go over?  Because if we are being honest, that is what #1 would entail: transgender athletes who identify as female would be wearing dresses to press events and such.  I am unconvinced that would result in appreciably less criticism than they are experiencing now.

Of course, there is always the aforementioned "Why don't you just not be transgender if you want to continue to compete?" option, which leads neatly into my next point: the only real way to avoid criticism is to accept the position that female-to-male transgender athletes have no place in gender-segregated sports.  And that's a rational position to take... but I don't see many people willing to come out and actually say that female-to-male transgender athletes should be banned from competition.  Instead, they seem to want to offer unworkable solutions that will just create a new, slightly different platform for harassment of these athletes.

[MyGodWearsAHoodie]

Male to female transgender athletes have no place competing as females.  I said it.

They are free to complete as males or as females in sports that permit both.  The PGA allows both males and females.  The LPGA is female only.  I would have no problem with a transgender athlete competing in the PGA while wearing a skirt.  Or in the NFL or NBA. They can join the Harlem globe trotters or race in NASCAR. 

[Spider-Dan]

Male to female transgender athletes have no place competing as females.  I said it.

Oh, plenty of people are willing to say that.  Several people have said that in this thread alone (if not in that exact phrasing).

But few are willing to openly say that male-to-female transgender athletes shouldn't compete at all... even though that's the only real way to silence these critics.  And your comparison of transgender women playing in the PGA while wearing skirts simply sidesteps the issue I mentioned above; they won't be received warmly* like Annika Sorenstam, but instead with hostility.  The same reactionary voices will be insisting that transgenders are Shoving This In Their Face, and complaining about political correctness and the LGBT agenda.  They will simply be trading one form of resentment and opposition for another.

*Sorenstam wasn't received all that warmly in the first place.

[fyo]

Outside of the deep personal degradation inherent in #1

Why is it personally degrading? You compete based on your chromosomes, not what you identify as.

At least, that's how it should be.

[MyGodWearsAHoodie]

Oh, plenty of people are willing to say that.  Several people have said that in this thread alone (if not in that exact phrasing).

But few are willing to openly say that male-to-female transgender athletes shouldn't compete at all... even though that's the only real way to silence these critics.  And your comparison of transgender women playing in the PGA while wearing skirts simply sidesteps the issue I mentioned above; they won't be received warmly* like Annika Sorenstam, but instead with hostility.  The same reactionary voices will be insisting that transgenders are Shoving This In Their Face, and complaining about political correctness and the LGBT agenda.  They will simply be trading one form of resentment and opposition for another.

*Sorenstam wasn't received all that warmly in the first place.

I don't care if they are received warmly.  What I care about is maintaining the integrity of women sports. 

But there will be some who herald a male to female transgender who competes in the men's division as a hero, and that person might win the Arthur Ashe award like Jenner.  Others will boo said individual.  But many athletes have their detractors.  People on this board have trashed Tim Tebow for kneeling others on this board have trash Kap for kneeling (although rarely was it the same folks)

You listed 3 options, here is number 5.  Have a transgender category.  Someone born with a dick shouldn't be regonized as the strongest female weight lifter.  But i have no problem with.them having the world record for strongest transgender weight lifter.

[CF DolFan]

Oh, plenty of people are willing to say that.  Several people have said that in this thread alone (if not in that exact phrasing).

But few are willing to openly say that male-to-female transgender athletes shouldn't compete at all... even though that's the only real way to silence these critics. 

I wholeheartedly disagree. I'm sure you can find some, just as you can find pretty much anyrthing, but it would be a small group. If a trans wants to compete in a men's sport, have their own locker or whatever, I don't care. If Cameron Wake wants to wear a skirt it doesn't matter to most Dolphins fans as long as he is helping us win games. If he wants change his name (ironically he wouldn't have to) and compete in women's wrestling then I would have issue with it.