Nazis and the upper limit of free speech

[pondwater]

To be clear, the actions that those groups are undertaking to purposely create violent confrontations are:

1) using their 1st Amendment rights by making adversarial free speech (something that is "within their legal rights and not breaking any laws"), while
2) using their 2nd Amendment rights to bear arms in self-defense

So in other words, when armed Nazis march down the street shouting "Jews will not replace us" and "One people, one nation, end immigration," they are not purposely creating violent confrontations (especially not from Jews or immigrants).  But when armed Antifa shouts back at the Nazis, well, Antifa is just looking to start a fight.  So the Nazis are just "exercising their protected right of free speech," while Antifa is "intentionally provoking violence."  OK.

If you want to know why many on the right are being accused of being soft on Nazis, it's this kind of "I don't agree with what they say, but I defend their right to say it... except for what these liberals want to say, whose rights I will NOT defend" rhetoric that is the cause.

Yeah, fighting with police and dragging an old lady with an American flag down the street is a bit more than free speech. Also, I'd like to know what shouting at Nazis and KKK members is supposed to do? Antifa has the right to say what they want, but why do they follow their opponents around saying it? Antifa is not going to change their opponents views. So what else is there?  The real fact is that they are there basically to fight.

[Spider-Dan]

Yeah, fighting with police and dragging an old lady with an American flag down the street is a bit more than free speech.

So is driving a car into a crowd of pedestrians, but apparently #notallNazis are responsible for that.  It seems that only Antifa is responsible (as a group) for every action of any individual associated with them.

Also, I'd like to know what shouting at Nazis and KKK members is supposed to do? Antifa has the right to say what they want, but why do they follow their opponents around saying it? Antifa is not going to change their opponents views. So what else is there?

Why do you not apply the same standard to shouts of "Jews will not replace us"?
What is saying that supposed to do?  Whose view is that going to change?

You have plenty of this why do they want to say this in the first place criticism for the leftists, but none for the Nazis.  When it comes to armed Nazis intimidating people at a synagogue, we are just supposed to accept it as Constitutional Free Speech, but when it comes to armed leftists challenging those same Nazis, suddenly your sense of what speech is proper and acceptable is alerted.

When you attack leftists for doing the same thing that you excuse Nazis for, that is indistinguishable from Nazi apologism.

[pondwater]

So is driving a car into a crowd of pedestrians, but apparently #notallNazis are responsible for that.  It seems that only Antifa is responsible (as a group) for every action of any individual associated with them.
Why do you not apply the same standard to shouts of "Jews will not replace us"?
What is saying that supposed to do?  Whose view is that going to change?

You have plenty of this why do they want to say this in the first place criticism for the leftists, but none for the Nazis.  When it comes to armed Nazis intimidating people at a synagogue, we are just supposed to accept it as Constitutional Free Speech, but when it comes to armed leftists challenging those same Nazis, suddenly your sense of what speech is proper and acceptable is alerted.

When you attack leftists for doing the same thing that you excuse Nazis for, that is indistinguishable from Nazi apologism.

I've already condemned both sides for the actions that have taken place. Your logic is sad and at the same time hilarious. If I condemn the Nazis and also condemn Antifa, that somehow you think that I'm covering for the Nazis. I think we can all agree that Nazis are bad, Communism is bad, and violence against peaceful protesters is bad. We are talking about behavior, not belief systems. The Nazis have a bad belief system, however that is their right. Antifa's behavior of initiating physical violence because they don't agree with that belief system is not their right. Likewise, if the Nazis were to initiate physical violence they would be just as wrong as Antifa. If you can't understand the difference between shouting "I hate you" and someone assaulting other people in retaliation for shouting "I hate you", then this conversation is moot. Agree to disagree. Feel free to go join the social justice group of your choice and I'll sit here and watch all the idiots and retards beat the shit out of each other on TV.

[Phishfan]

1) using their 1st Amendment rights by making adversarial free speech (something that is "within their legal rights and not breaking any laws"),

I'm not sure exactly how this works and it is only minimally criminal but the counter-protesters did not have a permit for their organization so they were breaking the law to some extent.

[Spider-Dan]

Antifa's behavior of initiating physical violence because they don't agree with that belief system is not their right. Likewise, if the Nazis were to initiate physical violence they would be just as wrong as Antifa.

You have presumed that Antifa is initiating violence (and not just defending themselves), and your rationale for this presumption is that Antifa is intentionally antagonizing those they disagree with.  However, not once have you criticized the Nazis for intentionally antagonizing... well, everyone else.  So Nazis can march up to a synagogue chanting "Jews go home!" and that's just constitutional free speech, but Antifa marching up to Nazis chanting "Nazis go home!" is looking for a fight.

This is a double standard that defends the free speech of the Nazis, but not their opponents.

I'm not sure exactly how this works and it is only minimally criminal but the counter-protesters did not have a permit for their organization so they were breaking the law to some extent.

Incorrect.  I already mentioned that both sides had permits.

[Cathal]

I'm not sure exactly how this works and it is only minimally criminal but the counter-protesters did not have a permit for their organization so they were breaking the law to some extent.

They both had permits.

[Phishfan]

My mistake.

[pondwater]

You have presumed that Antifa is initiating violence (and not just defending themselves), and your rationale for this presumption is that Antifa is intentionally antagonizing those they disagree with.  However, not once have you criticized the Nazis for intentionally antagonizing... well, everyone else.  So Nazis can march up to a synagogue chanting "Jews go home!" and that's just constitutional free speech, but Antifa marching up to Nazis chanting "Nazis go home!" is looking for a fight.

Yes, defending themselves from an elderly old lady holding an American flag. You sir are delusional, please stay away from mainstream media and seek counseling. I wish you the best of luck in your recovery...

[Spider-Dan]

I just figured out that you are talking about something specific, so I looked it up.  Naturally, this incident was from Boston, A WEEK AFTER Charlottesville, so from the start your "both sides" card was referencing events that hadn't even happened yet.  But yeah, a lady was pushing her flag in the face of some Antifa people walking by (which I'm sure would be categorized as "looking for a fight" from anyone that's a leftist) and one of them grabbed it and tried to run off.  She held on to it, ran with him, and eventually fell down (but was not "dragged").

So on the one hand, a Nazi drove a car into a crowd of pedestrians, killing one person and sending several others to the hospital.  And a bunch of other Nazis jumped a guy and beat him with metal poles, giving him a concussion and a fractured forearm.
But on the other hand, a week later someone tried to grab a woman's flag and caused her to fall down in the grass.
Bad people on many sides!

[pondwater]

I just figured out that you are talking about something specific, so I looked it up.  Naturally, this incident was from Boston, A WEEK AFTER Charlottesville, so from the start your "both sides" card was referencing events that hadn't even happened yet.  But yeah, a lady was pushing her flag in the face of some Antifa people walking by (which I'm sure would be categorized as "looking for a fight" from anyone that's a leftist) and one of them grabbed it and tried to run off.  She held on to it, ran with him, and eventually fell down (but was not "dragged").

So on the one hand, a Nazi drove a car into a crowd of pedestrians, killing one person and sending several others to the hospital.  And a bunch of other Nazis jumped a guy and beat him with metal poles, giving him a concussion and a fractured forearm.
But on the other hand, a week later someone tried to grab a woman's flag and caused her to fall down in the grass.
Bad people on many sides!

I have been referring to what Antifa does on a consistent basis. I can pull up plenty of videos of Antifa rioting, destroying property, and assaulting people. But it doesn't matter, to you a few thousand pretend Nazis and KKK members in a country of 350 million, is the same as the Third Reich taking over the country. Yeah, they're a real threat. They coming to get you Spider 

Also FYI, the old lady was simply holding a a flag, not pushing it in anyone's face. LMFAO, at you thinking an old lady is looking for a fight. After all these years on this site I've finally come to the conclusion that you have some kind of mental, emotional, or stability issues. You simply don't live in reality. Anyhow, your "everyone that doesn't agree with me is a Nazi sympathizer" thread has been fun. Have a great day 


**NEWSFLASH** And in other crazy, twisted, breaking news from the liberals. Left leaning ESPN has removed an Asian American football announcer from a game because his name is "Robert Lee". This is so ridiculous it's almost funny. The twist and spin on this one should be entertaining, lmao.

[Sunstroke]

But it doesn't matter, to you a few thousand pretend Nazis and KKK members in a country of 350 million, is the same as the Third Reich taking over the country. Yeah, they're a real threat.

A few thousand? Hell, there are estimated to be between 5,000-8,000 active members in 130 outposts of the KKK alone. Additionally, there are estimated to be 99 neo-Nazi groups, 43 neo-Confederate groups, 78 racist skinhead groups and 100 white nationalist groups in this country*.

Let's just say that your estimate of "a few thousand" is probably coming in on the low side...


* This breakdown of hate groups is from the Southern Poverty Law Center, and doesn't even start to factor in all of the people who have the same prejudices, predispositions...hates, as the groups listed, but just aren't registered members, preferring to push that shared white nationalist agenda more quietly, through donations, support of targeted legislation, etc...

[pondwater]

A few thousand? Hell, there are estimated to be between 5,000-8,000 active members in 130 outposts of the KKK alone. Additionally, there are estimated to be 99 neo-Nazi groups, 43 neo-Confederate groups, 78 racist skinhead groups and 100 white nationalist groups in this country*.

Let's just say that your estimate of "a few thousand" is probably coming in on the low side...


* This breakdown of hate groups is from the Southern Poverty Law Center, and doesn't even start to factor in all of the people who have the same prejudices, predispositions...hates, as the groups listed, but just aren't registered members, preferring to push that shared white nationalist agenda more quietly, through donations, support of targeted legislation, etc...

So what you're saying is that these fringe groups in question are a threat to forcefully take over our country of 350 million people?

[Sunstroke]

So what you're saying is that these fringe groups in question are a threat to forcefully take over our country of 350 million people?

No, that's what you said. Do you normally have that much difficulty determining the source of your own comments?

Sad

[Cathal]

So what you're saying is that these fringe groups in question are a threat to forcefully take over our country of 350 million people?

Maybe not take over, but now that they have very close to a proponent in the White House, they'll only get more vocal and more violent.

[pondwater]

No, that's what you said. Do you normally have that much difficulty determining the source of your own comments?

Sad

So then what was the point of you updating my estimate of an approximation of how many Nazis/KKK member there are in the country? Let's try this a different way since you are playing word games. Do you think that these fringe groups in question at the levels that you cited are a threat to forcefully take over our country of 350 million people? A simple yes or no will do. No need to twist and spin things.