Universal Basic Income

[Spider-Dan]

^ Define "can't". I don't have a problem with disability benefits.

You say you don't have a problem with disability (and I believe you), but many people who are on disability also receive SNAP (i.e. "food stamps").  There are countless examples of people shaming others for buying the wrong kind of food with SNAP funds, or criticizing them because they are using a SNAP card and aren't driving a 20-year-old rusted-out Dodge, or even because they are accepting food stamps while having the unmitigated gall to NOT rip out the granite countertops they bought 10 years ago before they were disabled.

Thereb are issues with the "taking care of family members"  that I'm not sure how to solve. On the one hand, it feels all kinds of wrong to pay people to take care of their parents (or kids).

The sad irony is that society would rather give a parent assistance so they can afford to pay a stranger to watch their kids while they work a minimum wage job that makes less than the assistance, than to give them an income so they can stay home with their kids.

As Dave mentioned, there is a looming automation crisis.  When robots have eliminated nearly all our jobs and all the income is being funneled to the 0.001% who own the robots, there are going to have to be some harsh discussions in this country about who deserves a decent income.

Businesses generate money, government spends money.

Resources generate wealth ("money" is literally created by the government, but I know what you meant).  The only reason businesses are considered to "own" those resources is because we, the people, have collectively decided that our government will permit them to do so.  You can look at the distant socialist empires of Saudi Arabia or Alaska as an example of what happens when government decides to enforce its monopoly claim over resources, and distributes the associated wealth as it sees fit.

Find me the business that can generate wealth without water from the government, electricity from the government, government-maintained roads, public-school-educated employees, government-enforced property rights, etc.  The very existence of businesses is derived from the consent of the people, as expressed through their government.

[Fau Teixeira]

to expand on spider's post look at walmart, They cost taxpayers 6.2 (average) billion dollars annually just in public assistance to their underpaid workers.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/clareoconnor/2014/04/15/report-walmart-workers-cost-taxpayers-6-2-billion-in-public-assistance/#473bfab9720b

"The study estimated the cost to Wisconsin’s taxpayers of Walmart’s low wages and benefits, which often force workers to rely on various public assistance programs," reads the report, available in full here.

"It found that a single Walmart Supercenter cost taxpayers between $904,542 and $1.75 million per year, or between $3,015 and $5,815 on average for each of 300 workers."

Americans for Tax Fairness then took the mid-point of that range ($4,415) and multiplied it by Walmart’s approximately 1.4 million workers to come up with an estimate of the overall taxpayers' bill for the Bentonville, Ark.-based big box giant's staffers.

The ramifications of this are incalculable. If Walmart had to pay competitive wages could it afford to drive out all the mom and pop businesses and local small businesses around the country that it routinely ruins?  It's not a level playing field. How can a small business owner compete with the economies of scale and the fact that walmart sucks 6.2 billion dollars out of taxpayers every year like a giant corporate vampire.

Looks to me like walmart is using the government to transfer wealth from taxpayers right into the waltons' bank accounts .. literally

[CF DolFan]

I have issue forcing anyone to pay a certain salary and benefits. It defeats free market or at the very minimum hurts it. Jobs like McDonalds are meant for high schoolers and college kids so I don't expect them to get paid like they are head of the household.

[Fau Teixeira]

Who works at mcdonalds and the like for shift #1 from 6 am until 2pm when high schools  and colleges are in session?

[Dolphster]

Find me the business that can generate wealth without water from the government, electricity from the government, government-maintained roads, public-school-educated employees, government-enforced property rights, etc.  The very existence of businesses is derived from the consent of the people, as expressed through their government.

No argument from me on the point you are making here.  Of course government has to play a role in enabling private entities and citizens to do what they do.  And I didn't mean to imply in my original post that the government shouldn't collect taxes from both individuals and corporations and utilize those taxes for things like infrastructure.  I just meant that there is a big difference between tax money being utilized for national defense, upkeep of roads (be they at the federal, state, or local level), etc. and tax money being utilized to essentially put a huge percentage of the public on the dole and getting nothing in return for that investment.  Of course argument that has been made throughout history in pretty much ever society is how much taxation is enough and how much is too much.  I readily admit that working for the federal government and seeing fraudulent levels of waste and abuse of tax dollars makes me want to keep Uncle Sam out of my wallet as much as possible.  If the federal government would only utilize their financial resources wisely, we would still have the programs we actually need from the government and would all be holding onto a lot more of our paychecks.  I don't mind paying taxes, I just hate how my taxes are wasted.  Of course one man's wasted is another man's necessity.  Hence the reason why the whole taxation issue will never have any kind of resolution.  Good debate though.  I like how you make me think even if we don't agree on things. 

[SCFinfan]

I think there is a chicken and egg problem here. What owes more to the other: government or private enterprise. I would argue not really either. Businesses couldn't function without the stable societies that governments provide, and governments couldn't really function without a populace that gains from the wealth that corporations (including, yes, giant ones) create.

That said, I'm fine with UBI. I think that we will find, as this century progresses, that our attempts to make people more comfortable and improve their living situations will backfire on us spectacularly. I consider Japan a harbinger, with it's demographic winter approaching like a shark sliding silently through the water towards an injured fish. Hopefully I'm wrong though, and then, maybe UBI will be great.