Workplace Ethics:Is doing personal errands on company time,ok?

[Pappy13]

I was replying to Pappy13's post (the one I quoted), who said that it is fine for a salaried person - but not an hourly person (?!) - to run errands for the boss on company time because "You'll make up the time someplace else."

"Making up the time someplace else" is not applicable to a discussion about running errands for the boss on company time, regardless of whether you are hourly or salaried.  It IS applicable to a discussion about running your own errands on company time (because you can make up the time someplace else).  But B wasn't asking about his own errands.

Alright, let me clarify my stance. It's never ethical to run errands "on company time". My point is that if you are salaried then you are paid to do a job, not paid for your time. There is a difference. If you are punching a time clock, then when you are on the clock you are working and you should ONLY be performing duties associated with your job. But if you are salaried as long as you can complete your job duties, then how you do that is your own business. If you need to run an errand (for personal or for your boss) as long as that doesn't interfere with you completing your job then it's fine. Now if your job is to stand guard at a post from 9:00 AM to 5:00 PM then absolutely it would be unethical for you to run an errand during that time. But if your job is to turn in a report on the study of the hump back whales to your boss on Friday, then as long as you do that what you're doing at 12:15 on a Wednesday is completely irrelevant. It sounds to me like Little B's job was not compromised by him running this errand for his boss and he's not punching a time clock, so therefore it's completely ethical. If he did punch a time clock and he clocked out to run the errand then that would be fine too, I'm not saying that hourly employees can't run errands, but it's off the clock, not on the clock.

What you are talking about is that it's not ethical for him to be running errands as part of his job. I agree with that, but that's not what he was asking in my opinion. He was asking is it ethical to run an errand for his boss that doesn't interfere with him performing his job. The answer to that question is yes it's ethical. That's simply doing someone a favor. The fact it's his boss is irrelevant. Now if Little B wasn't comfortable doing a favor for his boss then that's a completely different discussion. Obviously he was comfortable running the errand for his boss, it was his coworker trying to tell him how he should behave while NOT performing his job. It's none of her damn business what he does when NOT performing his job as long as he is performing his job. It's clear that he WAS performing his job and was able to squeeze in a favor for his boss at the same time. That's COMPLETELY ethical and I would add a smart move on his part.  This is no different than bringing cookies to the office to share with coworkers (or your boss). If that's unethical then everyone that works at Southwest Airlines is unethical.

[Spider-Dan]

I disagree with you on the purpose of a salaried job.  My experience with salaried work is not that you are there to simply get a job done.  The extreme ends of that interpretation would imply that it's OK to work 20 hours a week if your job is getting done, and expected for you to work 60+ if it is not.  In my experience, salaried jobs as those whose job responsibilities may require action at unpredictable times outside of the normally scheduled shift.  So while you are still expected to work a normal 40-hour work week, you have flexibility in where those 40 hours land.  If you are asked to come in and work extra hours, you get comp time, and if you need to take off early (and you don't want to take PTO), you can stay late the next day to make up the difference.

Under that interpretation, running your own errands on "company time" (i.e. during the normal shift) is OK, because you can simply shift your schedule around to get the expected hours in.  But if you're running errands for your boss, then unless you make up that time - which you shouldn't - you are (or, more accurately, your boss is) stealing work hours from the company.

[Sunstroke]

But if you're running errands for your boss, then unless you make up that time - which you shouldn't - you are (or, more accurately, your boss is) stealing work hours from the company.

And if, someday, I become my boss's boss...boy, is he going to get a stern talking-to.

 

[Pappy13]

My experience with salaried work is not that you are there to simply get a job done.  The extreme ends of that interpretation would imply that it's OK to work 20 hours a week if your job is getting done, and expected for you to work 60+ if it is not.  In my experience, salaried jobs as those whose job responsibilities may require action at unpredictable times outside of the normally scheduled shift.

That's certainly one aspect of one's job that may call for a salaried employee, but that's far from the norm in my opinion. Most salaried workers that I know have certain "core" hours that they typically work and only when they can't meet the demands of the job woking those hours do they go outside those "core" hours for long periods of time. Having said that, in my experience many salaried employees are not actually REQUIRED to be at the office during those "core" hours. Many work from home. Many others take long lunches or breaks to run errands, make a personal phone call etc. There are companies which frown on doing this every day or even frequently, but occasionally it's just fine and considered one of the benefits of being a salaried employee. There are downsides to being a salaried employee in that typically they do not get overtime except in certain instances that demand it, so there's a give and take in salaried positions that doesn't typically exist in hourly jobs. If you're in a salaried position where you are expected to make up "hours" as opposed to make up "work" then I think you are in the wrong position.

[Spider-Dan]

It seems to me that you are talking about salaried management positions.

I know many people (and have previously been) in salaried rank-and-file, where making up "work" doesn't even make sense based on the job description.  I've personally been an exempt employee at both a call center and as onsite tech support; in both scenarios, the very essence of my job was my availability to assist others.  The only way for me to "make up work" was literally to make myself available for x amount of hours.

In any case, B does not seem to be in a salaried management position, nor does he appear to be in a position based strictly on deliverables (e.g. sales).  So I think my point stands: if the question is whether or not it is ethical for his boss to ask him to run errands on company time, the answer is no.

[Pappy13]

It seems to me that you are talking about salaried management positions.

Those positions and a whole lot more than that as well.

I know many people (and have previously been) in salaried rank-and-file, where making up "work" doesn't even make sense based on the job description.  I've personally been an exempt employee at both a call center and as onsite tech support; in both scenarios, the very essence of my job was my availability to assist others.  The only way for me to "make up work" was literally to make myself available for x amount of hours.

Let me ask you something about your onsite tech support job. If you were actively working on a "ticket" let's call it for lack of a better word and it's 5:00 PM or whatever were your normal hours, do you simply stop what you are doing and say "I'll see you tomorrow, I'm off"? Or is it more likely that you would finish that "ticket" or at least go past your normal "off" time to try to finish the ticket and then maybe head out a little early the next day rather than take on another ticket? What about when you don't have an active ticket? Do you just sit around waiting for another ticket to be assigned to you or are there perhaps other things you work on when there's not an active ticket that would also constitute your job? In other words you're not strictly "making yourself available for "x" amount of hours" that's just part of the job. I think you are over simplifying the job that most salaried employees have. There's plenty of wiggle room in there to run errands when they need to, just like Little B did.

I'm in the technology business myself and certainly there's a part of my job that requires me to be available when needed, but there's also plenty of times when I can simply tell my boss, "I have a doctors appointment in the morning, I'll be in a little late" or "I have to drop my wife off at the airport, I'll be back in an hour", or "I've got to pick up the dog from the vet, I'm leaving a bit early today". That doesn't even mention if I decide to take 90 mins for lunch as opposed to 60. My boss NEVER asks if I'm gonna make up the time because he knows that there are plenty of times that I stay an hour late to finish what I'm working on or I get called on a weekend because there's a problem or I have to work over the weekend to finish something by Monday etc, etc etc. Now maybe I'm being really naive, but that goes for just about everyone of my coworkers in the technology department at Southwest and pretty much every salaried job that I have ever had. I think that's the norm more than the reverse, but that's just my opinion, I could be wrong.

[masterfins]

I'm in the technology business myself and certainly there's a part of my job that requires me to be available when needed, but there's also plenty of times when I can simply tell my boss, "I have a doctors appointment in the morning, I'll be in a little late" or "I have to drop my wife off at the airport, I'll be back in an hour", or "I've got to pick up the dog from the vet, I'm leaving a bit early today". That doesn't even mention if I decide to take 90 mins for lunch as opposed to 60. My boss NEVER asks if I'm gonna make up the time because he knows that there are plenty of times that I stay an hour late to finish what I'm working on or I get called on a weekend because there's a problem or I have to work over the weekend to finish something by Monday etc, etc etc. Now maybe I'm being really naive, but that goes for just about everyone of my coworkers in the technology department at Southwest and pretty much every salaried job that I have ever had. I think that's the norm more than the reverse, but that's just my opinion, I could be wrong.

I find this statement pretty true of most salaried jobs.  The real reason companies want to have salaried employees is so that they can get them to work more than 40 hours per week and not have to pay them overtime rates.  If you look at managers of retail stores they are all typically salaried, and they all work well in excess of 40 hours per week, occasionally they may work less than 40 hours, like the reasons stated in Pappy's post, but usually they work over 40 hours without any additional compensation.  Occasionally, you will read about a company being sued because they consider practically all employees salaried so they can overwork them, when the employees don't meet the definition of being a salaried employee.

[masterfins]

In a related matter, today I read an online article about Warren Buffet, the third richest man in the USA, which said he reimburses Berkshire Hathaway $50,000.00 per year to cover any postage, phone calls, or personnel items he may use of the business.  His annual salary of $100,000.00 hasn't changed in 25 years.  Of course he owns 38% of the company, so he's kind of paying himself back.  Must be nice to be a billionaire.

[Spider-Dan]

Let me ask you something about your onsite tech support job. If you were actively working on a "ticket" let's call it for lack of a better word and it's 5:00 PM or whatever were your normal hours, do you simply stop what you are doing and say "I'll see you tomorrow, I'm off"? Or is it more likely that you would finish that "ticket" or at least go past your normal "off" time to try to finish the ticket and then maybe head out a little early the next day rather than take on another ticket?

The latter.  But that is exactly what would happen if I were hourly, too.  Over 20 years in the IT industry (most of which was hourly), I only punched a physical timeclock at one job for one year.

What about when you don't have an active ticket? Do you just sit around waiting for another ticket to be assigned to you or are there perhaps other things you work on when there's not an active ticket that would also constitute your job?

Again, this is not different from hourly work.

Whether salary or hourly, my job is to be available.  That means that even if I've accomplished everything there is to do (and I've had tech jobs where my work day was literally the Office Space cliche of "15 minutes of real, actual work"), I need to be on site ready to provide assistance.  Could I leave early (and make up the time) if I need to run errands?  Sure.  But there was never any point where I could simply leave early for the day because my work was finished.  That doesn't even make any sense in a support role.

I'm in the technology business myself and certainly there's a part of my job that requires me to be available when needed, but there's also plenty of times when I can simply tell my boss, "I have a doctors appointment in the morning, I'll be in a little late" or "I have to drop my wife off at the airport, I'll be back in an hour", or "I've got to pick up the dog from the vet, I'm leaving a bit early today".

But that's not what we are talking about.  Those are example of leaving early for a reason; an excused absence, if you will.  Have you even had an IT support job where you directly told your boss, "I've finished all my work for today, so I'm just going to head home"?  I certainly have not... but that's the essence of what you are implying when you say that salary workers are just "paid to do a job."

I'll concede that management is frequently expected to put in more than 40 hours, and that evasion of OT can be a major component of elevating an employee to management status.  But there are many, many salaried rank-and-file employees who are expected to put in 40 hours a week.  And essentially, your examples support what I'm saying: even when "salaried," if you take off early you're expected to make up that time, and I imagine if you work extra it will be your expectation that you'll get some leeway to take off early (if not immediately, then in the future).  Ultimately, the kinds of "salaried" positions both of us are describing are ones where 40 hours a week is still the expectation, and anything significantly more or less than that is going to generate requests for an explanation.

So to tie this all back together: salary or hourly, if I were taking time off to run my own errands but my paychecks stayed the same, there would be an ethical expectation that the time lost would be made up.  And if B's boss is sending him off to run errands, the ethical expectation is the same... but B is not going to make up that time (nor should he).  That seems ethically questionable to me.

[Pappy13]

Have you even had an IT support job where you directly told your boss, "I've finished all my work for today, so I'm just going to head home"? I certainly have not... but that's the essence of what you are implying when you say that salary workers are just "paid to do a job."

More or less. I've said "I need to pick up my daughter from work so I'm leaving" before 5:00 PM on a regular basis. I didn't actually say that I was leaving "Since all my work was done", but being in a support role my work was never really done, it's just a matter of whether or not I start something else and I didn't, I left for the day. I've seen this same thing done by just about everyone in IT. The "reason" is always different, and I don't think it's ever actually been "because I'm done with my work", but the implication is that they didn't have anything they needed to get done before they left either. Pretty much the same thing in my book.

I'll concede that management is frequently expected to put in more than 40 hours, and that evasion of OT can be a major component of elevating an employee to management status. 

Just management? Just about everyone of the salaried people I know puts in at LEAST 40 hours a week. I routinely put in more than 40. Maybe that's the reason that we differ on this topic. Most everyone that I work with puts in OVER 40 hours a week and so if they have to leave early one day a week or come in a bit late one day or take an extra 30 mins or an hour for lunch no one gives it a second thought. 

But there are many, many salaried rank-and-file employees who are expected to put in 40 hours a week.

OMG YES! Did you think I was saying most salaried employees work less than 40? HELL NO!!! Most work MORE than 40 on average or at the very least they work approximately 40. What I'm saying is that they don't necessarily start work at the same time, finish at the same time, take breaks at the same time or even work the same number of hours everyday. That's my point, that it's COMPLETELY up to that person how they get the job done and the boss probably doesn't even know if they are working 38, 40 or 45 hours and he doesn't really care. If you can work exactly 8 hours per day and start the day at the same time every day and get off each day at the same time, more power to you, but that's not typical for salaried employees because they aren't getting paid by the hour, they are getting paid to perform a job and they work the necessary hours it takes to perform it.

And essentially, your examples support what I'm saying: even when "salaried," if you take off early you're expected to make up that time

I still disagree. They are paying you to perform your job, not paying you for the time it takes to get your job done. Let me give you an example using your tech support role. Lets say that you average 20 "tickets" a week in your role and there are 4 other tech support people and they each average 18 "tickets" a week. Now lets say that it takes you approximately 40 hours to get those tickets done and it takes the other techs approximately 40 hours as well. Does your boss see you as equals? Everywhere I have been the boss would be questioning why those other 4 guys can't get 20 tickets done when you can. He doesn't give a damn that they put in 40 hours just like you do, he wants them to perform the same "job" that you are of completing 20 "tickets" a week. And what if it only took you 35 hours a week to get those 20 "tickets" done. Is your boss gonna be asking why you are only working 35 hours a week? Hell no, he's gonna be asking the other guys why in the hell they can't get 20 "tickets" a week done like you are isn't he? It's not about the hours you spend it's about the amount of work you get done during those hours. If you can consistenly get more or just as much work done as the other guy, whether you work 38, 40 or 45 doesn't really matter. It's only if you CAN'T get as much work done as the next guy that "hours" might be a problem.

[Spider-Dan]

More or less. I've said "I need to pick up my daughter from work so I'm leaving" before 5:00 PM on a regular basis. I didn't actually say that I was leaving "Since all my work was done", but being in a support role my work was never really done, it's just a matter of whether or not I start something else and I didn't, I left for the day.

As I have been saying, if "your work is never done" then the statement "But if you are salaried as long as you can complete your job duties, then how you do that is your own business" doesn't make sense.  In essence, full-time salaried workers are expected to be working for, at a minimum, 40 hours.  And therefore, time that you are running errands for your boss - time that you don't make up - is basically stealing hours from the company.

Let me give you an example using your tech support role. Lets say that you average 20 "tickets" a week in your role and there are 4 other tech support people and they each average 18 "tickets" a week. Now lets say that it takes you approximately 40 hours to get those tickets done and it takes the other techs approximately 40 hours as well. Does your boss see you as equals?

That's a bad example.  If your 20 tickets are password resets and my 18 tickets are rebuilding PCs, I did significantly more work than you.  You cannot gauge work done simply by ticket count, any more than you can gauge how hard servers are working at a restaurant by how much they bring home in tips.

But I think the more appropriate comparison would be for me to say that if I've finished 20 tickets by end of business Thursday (after four 8-hour days) and the other four techs are sitting at 12 tickets each, I don't need to come in on Friday because I've already done my work for the week.  No salaried position I know of works like that.  You're expected to put in your 40.

[Pappy13]

That's a bad example.

Obviously the difficulty of the ticket has to be taken into consideration, but since that's  random, it will tend to average out over time between all the techs. Remember that the example I gave was "on average", not simply a week's sampling. The other techs might be able to explain it away as them getting more difficult tickets for a couple weeks or even a month or 2, but over a long enough period of time, say 6 months that's not gonna fly unless you are just somehow able to figure out how to skew the easier tickets your way all the time. The premise of the example is fine.

But I think the more appropriate comparison would be for me to say that if I've finished 20 tickets by end of business Thursday (after four 8-hour days) and the other four techs are sitting at 12 tickets each, I don't need to come in on Friday because I've already done my work for the week.  No salaried position I know of works like that.

I've done just that. I used to be a contractor and didn't get paid vacation, so if I wanted to have a 3 day weekend I would simply put in more work Monday through Thursday to allow me to take Friday off for example. Now you are going to say that I still worked 40 hours, not necessarily, all depended upon what I needed to get done that week, if I could get it done in 35, so be it. The point is that the company I worked for didn't watch the hours I was working to make sure that I was there 10 hours each day, they only cared if I got the same amount work done that week that I normally would and I did. They left it up to me to decide how many hours to put in to get a weeks worth of work done.

Still don't like that example, here's another. I sometimes work from home. When I do I simply tell my boss I'm working from home and that's that. No questions asked. I could easily log into my desktop for 8 hours and then log out and not work a second the whole day. Play video games, surf the internet, enjoy some time with my wife, etc and my boss probably wouldn't even be aware of it. He's not concerned because again he doesn't care how many hours I work as long as I get the work done that I need to get done. Working from home has become quite the norm for many salaried employees at least for 1 or 2 days a week for the EXACT reasons that we have been discussing. It gives that person the flexibility to be home if they need to be there to pick up a package that is being delivered or let the repair man into the house or make some personal phone calls or run an errand or 2 etc, etc, etc. This is becoming the norm for many IT companies. Do you deny this?

[Spider-Dan]

The other techs might be able to explain it away as them getting more difficult tickets for a couple weeks or even a month or 2, but over a long enough period of time, say 6 months that's not gonna fly unless you are just somehow able to figure out how to skew the easier tickets your way all the time.

Tickets aren't necessarily assigned randomly so I don't think it's as difficult as you imply, but that's really a discussion for another time.

I've done just that. I used to be a contractor and didn't get paid vacation, so if I wanted to have a 3 day weekend I would simply put in more work Monday through Thursday to allow me to take Friday off for example.

You were a... salaried contractor?  If you're a contractor billing hours, then all bets are off.  Contractors aren't necessarily expected to work 40, and (if you're 1099ing) you aren't going to get paid OT anyway.

Still don't like that example, here's another. I sometimes work from home. When I do I simply tell my boss I'm working from home and that's that.

Working from home completely changes the discussion, as the line between company time and personal time gets blurred into a haze.  You can be doing the laundry and re-tiling your kitchen (i.e. personal errands) at the same time you are "working from home."

But ultimately, I think the premise of the original question was whether it's ethically wrong to run personal errands on company time.  And I think that if you aren't making up that time (which you wouldn't for your boss's errands), it is ethically questionable to do so.

[DaLittle B]

I was just wayyy too tired to get back here yesterday to post,but I wanted to clarify a couple of things,as it seems to be sort of what this back and forth is about...

In a dictionary definition of management, I'm management,but more a supervisor in day to day operations sense.I'm only really in management,only as a function of there is the 3 owners/partners/bosses plus only 3 total full time non-contracted employees.(This after the purge/mass firings/company split/company reconfiguration/failed slow motion coup a few years ago,that I'm not sure what to call it,as I don't ask,and they only tell me bits and pieces of what happened)

The office manager/front desk secretary/maid,most things in office related.
The Executive assistant,something legal secretary?
The intern wrangler/Catch all -Me.
Currently 6 short termed contract paid interns (3 and 6 month contracts) we have had up to 14.

There has never been a clearly laid out who's in charge of who,and who can fire of us 3 non-bosses post company reconfiguration.The 3 of us "management" work well together with the goal of get it done,make the bosses happy,and look good.Post company reconfiguration means no bullshit,no drama allowed,if we have a problem,we address it.

Last winter,I started sitting in for the final round of interviews of the possible interns,I can Fire a paid intern (and did so twice last year),but I have to a valid reasons,and be written in a report,etc.

Technically,I "steal" time the company weekly,in most cases.I work roughly 15- 25 hours a week,but those can be 24/7 hours,but I get paid a slary based on a 40 hour work week.Most of that "work" is sitting around waiting to do work.

I'm sorry for the TMI in the post...

[Pappy13]

You were a... salaried contractor?  If you're a contractor billing hours, then all bets are off.  Contractors aren't necessarily expected to work 40, and (if you're 1099ing) you aren't going to get paid OT anyway.

Well I've been several things. I've been an hourly employee, I've been a salaried employee, I've been a salaried employee that worked as a contractor for another company and now I'm a salaried employee where the company I work for has a contract with Southwest Airlines. At one time I was a salaried employee that worked as a contractor for Southwest airlines and my company billed Southwest Airlines for billable hours which was ALWAYS 40 hours regardless of how many hours I actually worked be that more or less than 40. My timesheet ALWAYS said 40 hours, no matter what. Now the company I work for has a contract with Southwest airlines and I'm a salaried employee of that contracting firm, they do not bill Southwest for hours, they are paid a pre determined amount to provide support for their applications. The thing is that no matter what the circumstances whenever I've been a salaried employee, my hours never really mattered. I've always filled out a timesheet (have no idea why) and the timesheet has ALWAYS stated 40 hours total including paid time off and vacation. Basically I was simply told that I had to fill out a timesheet and it should come out to 40 hours, but my actual hours did not matter. The ONLY time that my ACTUAL hours worked mattered was when I was hourly and punched a clock and then my paycheck was determined by the time on that punch clock down to the minute. That has NEVER happened when I was salaried no matter the circumstance. That's been my experience and the experience of most of the salaried people that I have worked with. The 40 hours was basically "assumed" but that had absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the actual hours worked. Never.

The only time that I have gotten "overtime" as a salaried employee is when I've gotten a "bonus" for working beyond my "normal" time. Even then it was considered a bonus, not overtime per se. I've never done the 1099 thing.

Only 1 final point that I would like to make is that while I'm currently an employee of a contracting firm and not an employee of Southwest Airlines, all of the employees of Southwest Airlines that I know do the exact same thing as me, they turn in a "timesheet" of EXACTLY 40 hours each and every week including vaction and paid time off. They don't say "I've worked my time for this week I'm leaving", but there are to be sure some of them that work 35 hours a week or less on occassion if not pretty regularly. Coming in late. Leaving early. Taking long lunches. Running errands during the day. Making personal phone calls etc etc etc. One last thing about running errands, Southwest Airlines doesn't have 1 building in Dallas, they have 4 that are not necessarly next to each other and it's not uncommon to have to drive from one to other so it's pretty easy to stop on the way and do some personal business without anyone really knowing. That doesn't even include while you are on your lunch break which again can run much longer than an hour as most people don't take lunch break at the office. This may be hard for you to hear Spider, but everywhere I have been this is the norm. Maybe it's just because I've been with mostly large companies my whole career, but seeing as every one of them has been pretty much exactly the same way, I tend to think it's pretty common.

But ultimately, I think the premise of the original question was whether it's ethically wrong to run personal errands on company time.  And I think that if you aren't making up that time (which you wouldn't for your boss's errands), it is ethically questionable to do so.

I agree with you there. It's not ethical to run errands on "company time", the question is what is "company time" for a salaried employee exactly?