Comey used a private e-mail account to conduct official FBI business

[Spider-Dan]

Yeah, I'm not particularly receptive to "fake news!" as a response to citing data, especially when accompanied with rebuttal "figures" that are best categorized as, "well some people say illegal immigrants are actually using eleventy trillion dollars per year" silliness.

If you want to believe that illegal immigrants are flooding into this country to get free Obamacare abortions (before casting fraudulent votes?), that's on you.  I can't possibly rebut all of the sources that reject official government data because it's incompatible with their worldview.

[MyGodWearsAHoodie]

I do have an issue with that too.

So lets talk about common sense solutions that will work and are humane..... 

Quick way to reduce undocumented workers from working under the table. 

Issue them a green card on the stipulation that they may remain in the country as long as they remain legally employed and file a tax form annually, if they get caught working under the table or fail to file a 1040 they will be deported.   

[Spider-Dan]

Hoodie, that misses the point.  I mean, if the problem is really immigrant budget impact, what does that have to do with legal status?  Legal immigrants can just as easily be a net drain on the system; more easily, in fact, because they qualify for services (e.g. Social Security) that illegal immigrants do not.

It's all a shell game. They start at the goal - get rid of all these people from "shithole countries" - and then work backward to justify it.

[Tenshot13]

Yeah, I'm not particularly receptive to "fake news!" as a response to citing data, especially when accompanied with rebuttal "figures" that are best categorized as, "well some people say illegal immigrants are actually using eleventy trillion dollars per year" silliness.

If you want to believe that illegal immigrants are flooding into this country to get free Obamacare abortions (before casting fraudulent votes?), that's on you.  I can't possibly rebut all of the sources that reject official government data because it's incompatible with their worldview.

That's fine, I'm not receptive at all to anything you put forward.  It's so far left you're coming up behind me, and you choose the most minute details to argue.  You like to put words in people's mouths and attack, that's your debate strategy for everything. You use bias news articles all the time, and your argument is "fake news"?  I can't help your silliness to use only obvious leaning sources as your stance.  I mentioned Fox News as well, but that didn't fit your "fake news" narrative so you completely omit it.  They're bias too and I wouldn't believe much from them either.  You're naive as hell if you think anything coming from Vox, HuffPo, Fox News or CNN is the end all be all for news.

There are stats to back up everything I put forward, and the reason it varies is because of the variety of sources, not just one or two.  Those different sources use different criteria, which was another point I put forward that you conveniently ignored.  

Even though you like to just take your "fake news" ball and go home, I'll play along.  Quote from your Vox article...

The best estimates come from research by the Institute of Taxation and Economic Policy, a Washington, DC, think tank, which suggests that about half of undocumented workers in the United States file income tax returns. The most recent IRS data, from 2015, shows that the agency received 4.4 million income tax returns from workers who don’t have Social Security numbers, which includes a large number of undocumented immigrants. That year, they paid $23.6 billion in income taxes.

First off, who is Vox to say where the best estimate of anything is?  Secondly, the Institute of Taxation and Economic Policy is a non-profit think tank, not official government data like you stated.  If you research them, they have a left-center bias and are high on factual correctness.

Why are you so eager to eat whatever they feed you and not question EVERY source, including the ones you like?  Seems your doing yourself an injustice.

[Spider-Dan]

So who, in your opinion, is NOT a "biased news source"?  Saying that Fox News and CNN are two sides of the same coin is just more of the absurd "both sides" false equivalency that has led to where we are today.  CNN hired Trump's former campaign manager!

I'm glad to see that you looked at the Vox article, but you may want to look again more closely:

The most recent IRS data, from 2015, shows that the agency received 4.4 million income tax returns from workers who don’t have Social Security numbers, which includes a large number of undocumented immigrants. That year, they paid $23.6 billion in income taxes.

A portion of the payroll tax withheld from undocumented immigrants — like all workers — goes to the retirement trust fund at the Social Security Administration. In 2013, the agency reviewed how much money undocumented workers contributed the retirement trust fund. The number was astonishing: $13 billion in one year.

But really, does this even matter? Like I already said, whether immigrants are a drain on the deficit really has little to do with their legality.  Furthermore, if we could change the regulations to make illegal immigrants budget positive, would it even change your mind?  I mean, yesterday you thought they didn't pay any taxes at all, today it's clear that they pay several billion in taxes, and your position seems unaffected.

[Tenshot13]

So who, in your opinion, is NOT a "biased news source"?  Saying that Fox News and CNN are two sides of the same coin is just more of the absurd "both sides" false equivalency that has led to where we are today.  CNN hired Trump's former campaign manager!

I'm glad to see that you looked at the Vox article, but you may want to look again more closely:

The most recent IRS data, from 2015, shows that the agency received 4.4 million income tax returns from workers who don’t have Social Security numbers, which includes a large number of undocumented immigrants. That year, they paid $23.6 billion in income taxes.

A portion of the payroll tax withheld from undocumented immigrants — like all workers — goes to the retirement trust fund at the Social Security Administration. In 2013, the agency reviewed how much money undocumented workers contributed the retirement trust fund. The number was astonishing: $13 billion in one year.

In my opinion, there really isn't a non bias news source.  PBS Newshour is close, but also not the only source.  I look at CNN, FoxNews, HuffPo, Breitbart, Vox, Newsmax, I never get all my news from one place.  I try to find the same thing being reported by other sources and their spin on it.  I'll get CNN's stance vs Fox's stance and come up with my own conclusions. 

As far as the Vox article, I did read it closely.  IRS data being reported by a non government entity.  I can reject government data when it is being reported by a non government entity, as data can be misrepresented, especially by a source with documented bias a certain way.  The term confirmation bias comes to mind.  Having said that, ITEP seems mostly on the up and up.

But really, does this even matter? Like I already said, whether immigrants are a drain on the deficit really has little to do with their legality.  Furthermore, if we could change the regulations to make illegal immigrants budget positive, would it even change your mind?  I mean, yesterday you thought they didn't pay any taxes at all, today it's clear that they pay several billion in taxes, and your position seems unaffected.

If we could change the regulations to make illegal immigrants budget positive or even just break even, it would change my mind.  Yesterday I did think they didn't pay any taxes at all, sans sales tax which was thrown in my face.  Figured that one was common knowledge, but whatever.  I learned that they might pay upward to 10 billion a year taxes.  That doesn't mean a hill of beans when on the LOW end, the rest of us are paying 45 billion (It's likely a lot higher than that) for illegal assistance a year.  That's like throwing a match in a bonfire.

Also, less than half of illegal immigrants (40%) pay taxes, where as U.S. citizens are in the 60% range.

[MyGodWearsAHoodie]

In my opinion, there really isn't a non bias news source.  PBS Newshour is close, but also not the only source.  I look at CNN, FoxNews, HuffPo, Breitbart, Vox, Newsmax, I never get all my news from one place.  I try to find the same thing being reported by other sources and their spin on it.  I'll get CNN's stance vs Fox's stance and come up with my own conclusions. 

As far as the Vox article, I did read it closely.  IRS data being reported by a non government entity.  I can reject government data when it is being reported by a non government entity, as data can be misrepresented, especially by a source with documented bias a certain way.  The term confirmation bias comes to mind.  Having said that, ITEP seems mostly on the up and up.
If we could change the regulations to make illegal immigrants budget positive or even just break even, it would change my mind.  Yesterday I did think they didn't pay any taxes at all, sans sales tax which was thrown in my face.  Figured that one was common knowledge, but whatever.  I learned that they might pay upward to 10 billion a year taxes.  That doesn't mean a hill of beans when on the LOW end, the rest of us are paying 45 billion (It's likely a lot higher than that) for illegal assistance a year.  That's like throwing a match in a bonfire.

Also, less than half of illegal immigrants (40%) pay taxes, where as U.S. citizens are in the 60% range.

Two things to consider when doing both your camparisons:

1 you are camparing the amount of federal income taxes paid to the total expenditures of both federal and state government. Undocumented workers also pay state taxes.

2. It should come as no surprise that a lower percentage of undocumented workers pay taxes than the general population given how many of them live in poverty and make less than the threshold to pay taxes.

[Spider-Dan]

I look at CNN, FoxNews, HuffPo, Breitbart, Vox, Newsmax, I never get all my news from one place.  I try to find the same thing being reported by other sources and their spin on it.  I'll get CNN's stance vs Fox's stance and come up with my own conclusions.

I'm not sure how to square this with your immediate dismissal of a link to Vox as fake news.  I never claimed that that was the only valid article on immigrant taxes, but it is a valid one.

As far as the Vox article, I did read it closely.  IRS data being reported by a non government entity.  I can reject government data when it is being reported by a non government entity, as data can be misrepresented, especially by a source with documented bias a certain way.  The term confirmation bias comes to mind.  Having said that, ITEP seems mostly on the up and up.

This also does not make sense (without even involving ITEP).  If you believe that Vox is falsifying the government-provided statistics they are citing, then you should say so and present your evidence.  But simply saying "that's biased" and summarily dismissing it does not advance the discussion.

And while we're on the subject, saying, "some people say illegal immigrants cost us $113B, while some say it's $85B and others say it's $45B... therefore the low end of what illegal immigrants cost is $45B" is silly.  That IS fake news.  Provide a source for this $45B claim.  Just because it's the lowest of the three unsupported numbers you typed doesn't make it the actual existing floor.

Also, less than half of illegal immigrants (40%) pay taxes, where as U.S. citizens are in the 60% range.

Approximately 100% of adults in the U.S. - citizen or immigrant, legal or illegal - pay taxes.  What you mean to say is "federal income taxes," and repeating that oft-used Republican lie is a bad idea for many reasons... not least of which is that the poor and middle class pay much more in payroll taxes than they do in federal income taxes.  Paying zero federal income tax does not somehow invalidate their payroll taxes, or any of the myriad other taxes they pay.

[Tenshot13]

I'm not sure how to square this with your immediate dismissal of a link to Vox as fake news.  I never claimed that that was the only valid article on immigrant taxes, but it is a valid one.
This also does not make sense (without even involving ITEP).  If you believe that Vox is falsifying the government-provided statistics they are citing, then you should say so and present your evidence.  But simply saying "that's biased" and summarily dismissing it does not advance the discussion.

And while we're on the subject, saying, "some people say illegal immigrants cost us $113B, while some say it's $85B and others say it's $45B... therefore the low end of what illegal immigrants cost is $45B" is silly.  That IS fake news.  Provide a source for this $45B claim.  Just because it's the lowest of the three unsupported numbers you typed doesn't make it the actual existing floor.
Approximately 100% of adults in the U.S. - citizen or immigrant, legal or illegal - pay taxes.  What you mean to say is "federal income taxes," and repeating that oft-used Republican lie is a bad idea for many reasons... not least of which is that the poor and middle class pay much more in payroll taxes than they do in federal income taxes.  Paying zero federal income tax does not somehow invalidate their payroll taxes, or any of the myriad other taxes they pay.

Fake news was your term, not mine.  I said I research where the source is coming from, and if the source is known for bias I question it further because I'm not a sheep that believes everything I read on the internet.  You presented a liberal column from a liberal website that got data from ITEP which leans left.  The only other article I could find was the same thing by HuffPo, also leans left.

You're not realizing, NOTHING is on the up and up completely.  Nothing is completely factual, everything has a spin on it.  You or me have to decide if the bias is more than the data being presented, if criteria is being added or omitted to fit a narrative.  You seem to accept this sort of stuff from left leaning sites very easily and adamantly deny facts presented from the right.  I've said the same thing to people on the right, because in my opinion, everyone has lost their damn minds in this day and age and believe almost anything as long as it agrees with their political affiliation.

About Vox, it has a history of leaning left, that's where the bias comes from.  When I go on their website today, there is an article titled "Bullshit jobs: why they exist and why you might have one" (unprofessional if you want to be legit news) and "Sarah Sanders is upset because a restaurant wouldn’t serve her. She’s okay with it happening to gays." (bias opinion piece).  Why would I think anything they put out isn't bias?  Where is their credibility?

You want sources for my argument on government spending for illegal immigrants?

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=how+much+does+the+U.S.+spend+on+illegal+immigration%3F

I won't include the stats from FAIR.  Obvious hard right bias, even if it is the number one search result.

I got most of my argument from politifacts, a known LIBERAL leaning website.  Is it still "fake news" (again your words not mine...I try not to use political buzzwords as they make me nauseous)?

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2018/jan/23/donald-trump/does-immigration-policy-impose-300-billion-annuall/

The White House claimed that "current immigration policy imposes as much as $300 billion annually in net fiscal costs on U.S. taxpayers."

A study from the National Academies of Sciences, Engineering, and Medicine analyzed the fiscal impact of immigration under different scenarios. Under some assumptions, the fiscal burden was $279 billion, but $43 billion in other scenarios.


Are you really going that route regarding type of taxes?  Yes, I was mainly talking income taxes.  If you buy anything in the U.S., you're going to pay sales tax.  That means tourists also pay sales tax.  Payroll tax?  The illegals that pay their federal income taxes might pay that, but if they aren't on the payroll and are paid under the table, there aren't payroll taxes for them.  Since being an illegal immigrant is ILLEGAL, a ton of them are paid under the table, not in any payroll system.  Misdemeanor or not, it's easier for a business owner to pay under the table than deal with legal ramifications, thus resulting in no payroll taxes for the employee.  Florida is one of the big 3 cities for illegal immigration, no state tax there.

I've spent far too much time on this post.  I don't enjoy arguing politics to this extent, so I'm done after this one.  I've got a job to do and enjoy my free time doing more productive things.  Feel free to keep the discussion going though.

[pondwater]

I've spent far too much time on this post.  I don't enjoy arguing politics to this extent, so I'm done after this one.  I've got a job to do and enjoy my free time doing more productive things.  Feel free to keep the discussion going though.

Hahaha, yes there comes a point to stop arguing with these people. It's just one big continuous circle jerk of a black hole that never ends. Round and round they go, LMAO.