Dallas police officer enters man's apartment and shoots him (split from anthem thread)

[Pappy13]

killing some one without a reason is murder.

So what is manslaughter if it's not killing someone without a reason?

"Voluntary Manslaughter

In most jurisdictions, voluntary manslaughter consists of an intentional killing that is accompanied by additional circumstances that mitigate, but do not excuse, the killing. The most common type of voluntary manslaughter occurs when a defendant is provoked to commit the Homicide. It is sometimes described as a heat of passion killing. In most cases, the provocation must induce rage or anger in the defendant, although some cases have held that fright, terror, or desperation will suffice.

If adequate provocation is established, a murder charge may be reduced to manslaughter. Generally there are four conditions that must be fulfilled to warrant the reduction: (1) the provocation must cause rage or fear in a reasonable person; (2) the defendant must have actually been provoked; (3) there should not be a time period between the provocation and the killing within which a reasonable person would cool off; and (4) the defendant should not have cooled off during that period...."

"Involuntary Manslaughter

Involuntary manslaughter is the unlawful killing of another human being without intent. The absence of the intent element is the essential difference between voluntary and involuntary manslaughter. Also in most states, involuntary manslaughter does not result from a heat of passion but from an improper use of reasonable care or skill while in the commission of a lawful act or while in the commission of an unlawful act not amounting to a felony.

Generally there are two types of involuntary manslaughter: (1) criminal-negligence manslaughter; and (2) unlawful-act manslaughter. The first occurs when death results from a high degree of Negligence or recklessness, and the second occurs when death is caused by one who commits or attempts to commit an unlawful act, usually a misdemeanor..."

https://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/manslaughter

[MyGodWearsAHoodie]

So what is manslaughter if it's not killing someone without a reason?

"Voluntary Manslaughter

In most jurisdictions, voluntary manslaughter consists of an intentional killing that is accompanied by additional circumstances that mitigate, but do not excuse, the killing. The most common type of voluntary manslaughter occurs when a defendant is provoked to commit the Homicide. It is sometimes described as a heat of passion killing. In most cases, the provocation must induce rage or anger in the defendant, although some cases have held that fright, terror, or desperation will suffice.

If adequate provocation is established, a murder charge may be reduced to manslaughter. Generally there are four conditions that must be fulfilled to warrant the reduction: (1) the provocation must cause rage or fear in a reasonable person; (2) the defendant must have actually been provoked; (3) there should not be a time period between the provocation and the killing within which a reasonable person would cool off; and (4) the defendant should not have cooled off during that period."

https://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/manslaughter

would a reasonable person be provoked by someone being in their own house minding their own business?

you come home see your wife in bed with you neighbor.  you kill them that is manslaughter.  you go into your neighbors house see your neighbor in bed with his wife.  you kill them that is murder. 

[Pappy13]

you come home see your wife in bed with you neighbor.  you kill them that is manslaughter.  you go into your neighbors house see your neighbor in bed with his wife.  you kill them that is murder.

If you go into your neighbors house see your neighbor in bed with his wife, turn to leave and toss a lit cigarette on the floor that starts a fire and your neighbor and his wife are killed in the fire that's manslaughter not murder. You had no reason to kill them, in fact that was not your intent at all but you did still cause their deaths.

I like this game let's keep playing. You make up some scenario that has no bearing whatsoever on this case at all and I'll make up some other scenario that also has no bearing whatsoever on this case at all and we'll pretend like it does. Nah, nevermind it sounds silly.

[MyGodWearsAHoodie]

If you go into your neighbors house see your neighbor in bed with his wife, turn to leave and toss a lit cigarette on the floor that starts a fire and your neighbor and his wife are killed in the fire that's manslaughter not murder. You had no reason to kill them, in fact that was not your intent at all but you did still cause their deaths.

I like this game let's keep playing. You make up some scenario that has no bearing whatsoever on this case at all and I'll make up some other scenario that also has no bearing whatsoever on this case at all and we'll pretend like it does. Nah, nevermind it sounds silly.

the key difference is in all your hypos, the person did not intend to kill someone.  she intended to kill him. 

[pondwater]

the key difference is in all your hypos, the person did not intend to kill someone.  she intended to kill him. 

So Mr. Mindreader. Did she intend to kill him, like she said to herself on the way home, "I'm gonna kill some motherfucker that I don't know in a different apartment".

Or did she intend to kill him at that moment to(in her mind) protect herself. Those are two very different things.

[MyGodWearsAHoodie]

So Mr. Mindreader. Did she intend to kill him, like she said to herself on the way home, "I'm gonna kill some motherfucker that I don't know in a different apartment".

Or did she intend to kill him at that moment to(in her mind) protect herself. Those are two very different things.

if you are armed, you have a responsibility to use the gun responsiblely.  He was in his own home.  She intended to kill him.  she wasn’t in danger.  even if it was her own apartment she could have retreated rather than confront him. 

[CF DolFan]

  even if it was her own apartment she could have retreated rather than confront him. 

Does the law require she try to retreat before defending herself? In Florida it does not.

[MyGodWearsAHoodie]

Does the law require she try to retreat before defending herself? In Florida it does not.

In every stste but Florida you have a duty to retreat.

[Pappy13]

the key difference is in all your hypos, the person did not intend to kill someone.  she intended to kill him. 

That is your opinion until I hear that from the defendant. Hoodie if she comes forward and claims what you and Spider claim she's claiming then I will be right there with you 2 on murder, but I haven't heard that yet. That doesn't sound like a reasonable explanation to me either and I wouldn't believe her story and since I would assume she's lying to cover up something I would find her guilty of murder in that case.

What does sound like a reasonable explanation to me is that she was trying to enter what she thought was her apartment (still outside the apartment) when the man inside opened the door and startled her she pulled out her revolver and shot him thinking that he was inside her apartment. Only after she shot him did she realize that he was not inside her apartment but rather inside his own apartment. That's manslaughter in my opinion. That's the story that I heard originally and it makes the most sense to me, but that's only my opinion, I could be wrong.

[Phishfan]

In every stste but Florida you have a duty to retreat.

False

[Spider-Dan]

If you point a gun at someone and purposefully shoot them, that is evidence of an intent to kill.  In no situation is "I intentionally shot this person but I didn't mean for them to die" a valid defense against a murder charge.

Now, what could be a valid defense against a murder charge is, "I shot this person who had invaded my home," as you would be claiming self-defense under a castle doctrine (or something similar).  But her claim that she believed the apartment was hers is not remotely credible; no reasonable person would believe that.  So there is no self-defense argument, which means manslaughter should be out of the window.  The reason why she is being charged with manslaughter instead of murder is that the prosecution is choosing to accept her laughable "wrong apartment" story, which makes the homicide merely negligent instead of malicious.  It's nice to be a cop.

[Spider-Dan]

Not completely. This story came from somewhere. It's the original story I heard on the radio. I don't know the origin of the story.

It was the first version released to the press by leaks from unnamed DPD "sources."

It all changed when the arrest warrant came out, but there were 2 disctinctly different stories in the beginning. So yes some of it is conjecture on my part, but when I heard the story originally it was that she was trying to enter the apartment when he opened the door from the inside and she shot him. I'm not sure where that story came from, but it seems the most likely to me.

That story had to be changed because it became clear that when Jean was shot, he was well inside the apartment, far away from the door.  She shot him from "across the room."

[MyGodWearsAHoodie]

rather than sit in jail like anyone else.  the dallas taxpayers continue to pay her salary. 

[Phishfan]

rather than sit in jail like anyone else.  the dallas taxpayers continue to pay her salary. 

I'm not sure if she was still being paid or not, I have not seen either way. She is fired now though.

[CF DolFan]

Wow .... the process is working huh? Imagine that. I can't believe the whole country didn't burn down on day one before any facts came out and yet the process is still working.