Leah Remini and the aftermath of Scientology

[Dave Gray]

^ I mean...I think you sorta answered it yourself.  It doesn't make Catholocism a cult, but the decision to shield raping priests from exposure was cult-like.

[Pappy13]

^ I mean...I think you sorta answered it yourself.  It doesn't make Catholocism a cult, but the decision to shield raping priests from exposure was cult-like.

In what way? The Catholic religion didn't APPROVE of this behavior, in fact just the opposite they knew it was wrong which is why they tried to cover it up. Not ALL abhorrent behavior is cult like. If that's your definition of cult like then John Wayne Gacy was partaking in cult like behavior. I guess he was a cult of 1 then? It's specifically certain abhorrent acts that are cult like. At least that's my definition of cult like. Your definition seems completely different from mine.

[Dave Gray]

I don't think the definition of cult is going to find your answer, but if you were to list qualities of cults (and there are many lists like this), one is about giving power to leadership over dogma -- or basically worship of the leadership itself.

IMO, the decision to protect priests regardless of their acts is akin to worshiping the leadership itself.  It's blurry and it's not 1:1, but it's on the same path.  The church protected the bad priests, not because they think they were right, but because they were priests.  They put the value of the position over the dogma, like a cult would do.

[Pappy13]

The church protected the bad priests, not because they think they were right, but because they were priests.

That's incorrect. They protected them because they didn't want to lose members of the Catholic faith over it. They did NOT protect them because they were priests, they were worried that it would be found out and the Catholic religion would be ruined. In fact even saying they were "protected" is not totally accurate, many of the priests were removed from their parish, counseled, moved into positions where they didn't have a parish or access to children, etc. What they did was wrong, but they didn't do it for the reasons you think they did.

There was also a LOT of backwards thinking in that they could prevent these pedophile tendencies through counseling etc. This was obviously a very flawed belief, but they didn't just accept the behavior because they were priests. That's not what happened at all. When it was found out what was happening the congregation was horrified by it and many of those guilty were expelled from the church. That's just the opposite of what happens in a CULT which is that the practice is allowed to continue unchecked and in fact the practice becomes dogma.  You need to go read a little about David Koresh and Jim Jones and some other well known cult leaders and what they were teaching their congregation. These things weren't being covered up by their religion they were being written into the laws of the church by their leaders.

[Pappy13]

i can see the way this thread is gonna go already. a few people will comment how "out there" Scientology is .. and some snarky atheist like me is probably going to say something like "i don't see the different between Scientology and any other religion .. they're all brain-washy cults, look at cardinal pell in australia who just got convicted of penetrating a minor (actual charge) and i'd argue that based on all of this that i think religion allows abusers to get away with abuse and actively shelters them from prosecution''.. and then arguing ..

Wow, I had no idea how right you were. I mean I knew atheists thought I was wrong, I had no idea they thought I belonged to a cult.

[Fau Teixeira]

honestly when you boil it down the only difference between a "mainstream" religion and a cult is popularity

[Pappy13]

Not quite. Here's a "few" differences.

1) CULT: Single, unquestioned leader who makes all the rules, with no accountability to peers, a presbytery, a chapter, or co-leaders.

RELIGION: Plurality and hierarchy of leadership, accountable to one another with a charter or church constitution including a mechanism in place to remove leaders who abuse their power.

2) CULT: Cohabitation. Members often live in a group or commune, often with the leader.

RELIGION: Members have their own lives and homes and come together to worship or socialize, then go back to family homes.

3) CULT: Isolation. Members are often not allowed to interact/socialize with outsiders, and frequently are required to separate from their friends and families.

RELIGION: Respect the friends and family of their adherents, almost always encouraging friend and family relationships, even with those not part of the religion.

4) CULT: Coercion. Coercive recruitment methods, often including sleep deprivation, withholding of food or bathroom breaks, locking the initiate in a room with a succession of people hammering in the group's ideas.

RELIGION: Members, including new members, are free to come and go as they please.

5) CULT: Repetition. Members are told what to believe on a daily basis, with intense, though often subtle, indoctrination techniques used to hold members.

RELIGION: Teaching and study groups are mutually encouraged with all members free to contribute insights. A variety of subjects are discussed.

6) CULT: Exclusiveness. Initiates are often told that only "select" members of the cult will reach the ultimate goal. This is incentive to stay and to be more dedicated to the cult.

RELIGION: All have the same requirements and opportunities for advancement, leadership positions and participation.

7) CULT: Bread trails. The dogma is fed to the initiate in small pieces, and gaining more knowledge about the dogma requires a greater commitment to the organization.

RELIGION: Typically all beliefs are publicly available with no effort made to keep some beliefs secret.

8 ) CULT: Alienation. Adherents are encouraged or even bullied into thinking in terms of "us versus them" with total alienation from "them."

RELIGION: Members are encouraged to quietly show themselves as exemplary among their peers in secular workplaces and in public.

9) CULT: Seclusion. Members are often not allowed to leave the cult or even the cult compound. Even temporary excursions among outsiders are done in pairs or in groups with a trusted member always present.

RELIGION: Gatherings are held at regular intervals with members free to come or skip as they please.

10) CULT: Totalitarian. Cults ask significantly more time and money from their adherents, often asking for a person's life savings to progress in the organization. They are usually totalitarian and demand that the individual give themselves up to the organization or theology.

RELIGION: The tithe (10% of income) is a good example of what a religion may ask of its adherents, and rarely will anyone check up on members to make sure they are doing this. In pretty much all churches, this is strictly voluntary.

11) CULT: Secretive about the workings, the leadership, and the finances.

RELIGION: Respect individual freedom and ask for a commitment typically less than a person devotes to their work and family. There is no secrecy over the leader's activities, typically these are very transparent, with the congregation knowing the salary their tithes pay the clergy members, the amount going to building upkeep, and how much goes into helping the needy, community charity, etc. Financial statements are typically available to church members.

If you have never been part of a religion or cult then I could see how they might seem similar, but no Catholic would ever mistake Scientology for Catholicism or vice versa. The idea is ludicrous.

[Spider-Dan]

It's interesting, isn't it? I don't know why people glom towards scientology, but belief is inextricably built into people, it seems. Don't know if this is evolutionary or a weird by-product of consciousness, or something more mysterious. Whatever it is, it's there. I look forward to when we have a unified theory of religion. For now... beats me.

I think it's the inevitable combination of instinct + language.

Animals - including humans - rely upon instinct for survival.  It helps us distinguish between things that are dangerous and things that are beneficial.  In the wild, when your instinct fails you, you stand a good chance of dying.  As we develop consciousness and then language, we have to find a way to put our instinct into words so that we may describe our feelings to others.

Unfortunately, as society grows more complex, these written instincts grow from simple notions like "It's a bad idea to go out alone at night" or "You should not eat animals that lay in feces" to "You must sacrifice and burn five lambs before each harvest season."

[Fau Teixeira]

1) CULT: Single, unquestioned leader who makes all the rules, with no accountability to peers, a presbytery, a chapter, or co-leaders.

so .. the pope, or the dailai lama

2) CULT: Cohabitation. Members often live in a group or commune, often with the leader.

so the 1000 residents of vatican city, thousands of nuns that live in convents and thousands of monks in monestaries.

3) CULT: Isolation. Members are often not allowed to interact/socialize with outsiders, and frequently are required to separate from their friends and families.

some monastic orders and some buddhist orders

4) CULT: Coercion. Coercive recruitment methods, often including sleep deprivation, withholding of food or bathroom breaks, locking the initiate in a room with a succession of people hammering in the group's ideas.

so you're describing pretty much every religion in some way here over the past 1500 years. Currently the dogmatic penalty for apostasy in islam is death.

5) CULT: Repetition. Members are told what to believe on a daily basis, with intense, though often subtle, indoctrination techniques used to hold members.

Are you kidding me ? this is exactly what religions do to children, who lack the analytical skills to process information. This is exactly what happens when you indoctrinate kids into a religion.

6) CULT: Exclusiveness. Initiates are often told that only

"select" members of the cult will reach the ultimate goal. This is incentive to stay and to be more dedicated to the cult.

i believe that JWs tell you only 144k people will ever make it into heaven.

8 ) CULT: Alienation. Adherents are encouraged or even bullied into thinking in terms of "us versus them" with total alienation from "them."

have you been following the christian right lately ? .. us vs. them defines their political view. "war on christmas" is just the easiest example of this.

[Cathal]

I can see why Pappy13 doesn't think religion is a cult, since he belongs to it. It's tough to see the light when you're buried in the middle of the forest.

[Dave Gray]

I also don't think that we're saying Catholicism is a cult.  Some of us are saying that there is evidence, on occasion, that there are elements of it.

Also,

That's incorrect. They protected them because they didn't want to lose members of the Catholic faith over it. They did NOT protect them because they were priests, they were worried that it would be found out and the Catholic religion would be ruined.

These are the same thing to me.  They protected them because they were priests, because exposure of these figures would hurt the organization (at the expense of the dogma).  Had they been regular people pedophiles, instead of priests, the church would have acted differently.

[Pappy13]

so .. the pope, or the dailai lama
so the 1000 residents of vatican city, thousands of nuns that live in convents and thousands of monks in monestaries.
some monastic orders and some buddhist orders
so you're describing pretty much every religion in some way here over the past 1500 years. Currently the dogmatic penalty for apostasy in islam is death.
Are you kidding me ? this is exactly what religions do to children, who lack the analytical skills to process information. This is exactly what happens when you indoctrinate kids into a religion.
i believe that JWs tell you only 144k people will ever make it into heaven.
have you been following the christian right lately ? .. us vs. them defines their political view. "war on christmas" is just the easiest example of this.

Ah....so you don't know anything about the Catholic religion. Ok, that clears up the confusion.

[Fau Teixeira]

other than being a recovering catholic myself .. yes .. nothing at all

[Pappy13]

I can see why Pappy13 doesn't think religion is a cult, since he belongs to it. It's tough to see the light when you're buried in the middle of the forest.

Well I"m actually not a practicing Catholic. I haven't gone to church in years except for when they buried my dad, however I still believe some/most of the teachings that I learned growing up as a Catholic that mostly had to do with treating others as you would have them treat you and the 10 commandments and that sort of stuff. Amazingly no one tried to prevent me from leaving or came looking for me and harrassed me into going back. No one told my parents they couldn't have anything to do with me now that I was no longer a Catholic. No one told me that I was going to die a horrible death or would be consumed in the fires of hell. Really they just allowed me to stop coming since it was my choice. When I went back this passed summer and attended my fathers funeral everyone there was extremely nice to me and welcomed me back into the church even though I was just visiting because of my family. They even allowed me to carry my Dad's ashes out of the church and to the Catholic cemetary to be buried. Yes I guess I'm lucky to have escaped that abusive cult that has been nothing but wonderful to me and my entire family my whole life.

[Dave Gray]

^ Again....we didn't say Catholicism was a cult.  Just that there are some elements of cult-like behavior sometimes.  There is nuance in this, like most things.