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Author Topic: I learned something very disturbing  (Read 4621 times)
dolphins4life
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THE ASSCLOWN AWARD


« on: May 01, 2019, 01:40:51 pm »

I felt the need to post this after seeing the update about the Dallas police officer.

Did you know that police has no responsibility to protect people from criminals.

For example, if you are being attacked and you call the police for help, they can legally say sorry, "Sorry, we won't help you."

The lawyer for the SRO is making this case in his defense.

This begs the question, why do we have police forces?  Wouldn't that money be better spent elsewhere if they are not legally obligated to do their jobs?  It is definitely very scary because we had active shooter training at my job last year, but they didn't tell us that if we called the police, they could refuse to send anybody to help us.
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CF DolFan
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cf_dolfan
« Reply #1 on: May 01, 2019, 01:46:11 pm »

It may not be a "law" per se but many agencies have a directive that they have to engage active shooters. It's even the new policy in Broward County where the Deputies did not go in. It was already in place in many places.

Broward Sheriff’s deputies will have to try to confront active shooters in the future, a change to the department’s written policy that was lambasted after the Feb. 14 massacre at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School.

The change took effect on Jan. 4, is outlined in an internal memo that states deputies “shall” immediately intervene instead of “may” in the case of an active shooter scenario.

The policy also notes there are “very limited extenuating circumstances” when a solo deputy can delay their response.


Responding officers also would have defined priorities, in order:

-- Stop the shooter.

-- Rescue the victims and provide medical assistance.

-- Arrest suspects and preserve the crime scene.
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MyGodWearsAHoodie
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« Reply #2 on: May 01, 2019, 02:15:42 pm »

It may not be a "law" per se but many agencies have a directive that they have to engage active shooters. It's even the new policy in Broward County where the Deputies did not go in. It was already in place in many places.

Broward Sheriff’s deputies will have to try to confront active shooters in the future, a change to the department’s written policy that was lambasted after the Feb. 14 massacre at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School.

The change took effect on Jan. 4, is outlined in an internal memo that states deputies “shall” immediately intervene instead of “may” in the case of an active shooter scenario.

The policy also notes there are “very limited extenuating circumstances” when a solo deputy can delay their response.


Responding officers also would have defined priorities, in order:

-- Stop the shooter.

-- Rescue the victims and provide medical assistance.

-- Arrest suspects and preserve the crime scene.


"Many" grossly overstates the situation. A more accurate statement would be "a very few jurisdictions have enacted work policies requiring that police engage active shooters, this is almost always a reaction to public outcry after police do nothing while unarmed innocent are slaughtered.  Even once these standards are enacted they are merely work policies meaning that failure to intervene could result in being disciplined or fired but will not result in the officer facing civil or criminal repercussions.   In the vast majority of jurisdictions the police are trained to put personal safety first."
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Dolphster
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« Reply #3 on: May 01, 2019, 03:38:35 pm »

I felt the need to post this after seeing the update about the Dallas police officer.

Did you know that police has no responsibility to protect people from criminals.

For example, if you are being attacked and you call the police for help, they can legally say sorry, "Sorry, we won't help you."

The lawyer for the SRO is making this case in his defense.

This begs the question, why do we have police forces?  Wouldn't that money be better spent elsewhere if they are not legally obligated to do their jobs?  It is definitely very scary because we had active shooter training at my job last year, but they didn't tell us that if we called the police, they could refuse to send anybody to help us.

Can you provide a little more specificity?  In your second paragraph you use the term "no responsibility to protect people from criminals" but in your final paragraph you use the term "not legally obligated to do their jobs."   There is a big difference between "responsibility" and "legal obligation".   "Protect people from criminals" is also very vague.  I think this is a very interesting topic, but you have to define your scenario a little more. 
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MyGodWearsAHoodie
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« Reply #4 on: May 01, 2019, 04:48:26 pm »

I will provide specificity.  Scot Peterson was paid by the taxpayers for the sole responsibility of protecting the children of MSDHS.  He choose to protect himself instead of doing the one job the one time he was needed after collecting pay for years to be on-hand if said children needed his protection. 

While this did result in him losing his job he is not subject to criminal prosecution nor civil liability, his pension is not even reduced.  Compare this to what would have happened if he was in the military and displayed such cowardice, he would face court martial including the possibility of death.

While I am not advocating the death penalty for cowardice officers, there should be both criminal and civil consequences for instances where cops refuse to protect the public that pays them for said protection.
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CF DolFan
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cf_dolfan
« Reply #5 on: May 01, 2019, 05:59:02 pm »

"Many" grossly overstates the situation. A more accurate statement would be "a very few jurisdictions have enacted work policies requiring that police engage active shooters, this is almost always a reaction to public outcry after police do nothing while unarmed innocent are slaughtered.  Even once these standards are enacted they are merely work policies meaning that failure to intervene could result in being disciplined or fired but will not result in the officer facing civil or criminal repercussions.   In the vast majority of jurisdictions the police are trained to put personal safety first."
No it doesn't. Many of my friends are some sort of law enforcement here, Ga, AL and TX and I can tell you that directive was policy way before any mass shootings. I think your liberal cities are playing catch-up but a lot of others have been doing active shooter scenes for many, many years and the directive has been to engage.  Why do you think the uproar from all of the other police when the Broward Deputies were ordered to stand down? I mean seriously ... the Broward Sheriff lost his job and not because they retroactively decided engaging is a good idea. I sear to you that one of my best friends who is a deputy in a local high school, with tears in his eyes, was absolutely appalled they did not engage. He said that the kids in his high school are like his kids and even if it wasn't a directive he could have never stood by without going in.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2019, 06:02:05 pm by CF DolFan » Logged

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MyGodWearsAHoodie
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« Reply #6 on: May 01, 2019, 06:17:25 pm »

Israel was fired because Gov. Ron DeSantis wants to be re-elected and unlike almost every other decision he can make the only criticism 99% of all voters have of this move is what took so long.

The level of protection ordinary citizens feel they are owed to by the police is vastly greater than the level that is actually required.

And this unpopular and grossly incompetent sheriff was relieved of his duties, he is not subject to either criminal nor civil liberties for failing to fulfill obligations that could have saved lives.

If a truck drive accidentally fails to maintain his trucks brakes he will be held both civilly and criminal liable for the outcome.  If a cop willfully and knowingly refuses to do his job to protect and serve at worst he will loses his job.
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CF DolFan
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cf_dolfan
« Reply #7 on: May 01, 2019, 06:44:01 pm »

Israel was fired because Gov. Ron DeSantis wants to be re-elected and unlike almost every other decision he can make the only criticism 99% of all voters have of this move is what took so long.

The level of protection ordinary citizens feel they are owed to by the police is vastly greater than the level that is actually required.

And this unpopular and grossly incompetent sheriff was relieved of his duties, he is not subject to either criminal nor civil liberties for failing to fulfill obligations that could have saved lives.

If a truck drive accidentally fails to maintain his trucks brakes he will be held both civilly and criminal liable for the outcome.  If a cop willfully and knowingly refuses to do his job to protect and serve at worst he will loses his job.
Even the Broward County Sheriff's office used to have to engage.

Sheriff Israel admitted that he had changed the Broward Sheriff's Office written policy on active shooters, changing one word in a critical sentence about deputies engaging active shooters from "shall" go in after the shooter, to "may" go in after the shooter. Polk County Sheriff Grady Judd, a commissioner on the panel, admonished Sheriff Israel stating that "Words matter, and according to your policy, he did not have to go in".

BTW ... if you ever get the chance watch some video of Sheriff Grady Judd. He's arguably the best Sheriff in the country.  Love that guy!!
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Tenshot13
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« Reply #8 on: May 01, 2019, 07:23:34 pm »

Grady Judd is the man.
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Spider-Dan
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« Reply #9 on: May 01, 2019, 09:37:11 pm »

No it doesn't. Many of my friends are some sort of law enforcement here, Ga, AL and TX and I can tell you that directive was policy way before any mass shootings. I think your liberal cities are playing catch-up but a lot of others have been doing active shooter scenes for many, many years and the directive has been to engage.
I believe you and Hoodie are saying 2 different things.

Even if the department policy is to engage, failing to do so will never rise to the point of criminal negligence.  You can be written up, suspended, or maybe even fired... but you will not spend time in prison.  This is as opposed to the military, where a failure to engage means you can potentially be imprisoned.
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MyGodWearsAHoodie
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« Reply #10 on: May 02, 2019, 01:40:48 pm »

I believe you and Hoodie are saying 2 different things.

Even if the department policy is to engage, failing to do so will never rise to the point of criminal negligence.  You can be written up, suspended, or maybe even fired... but you will not spend time in prison.  This is as opposed to the military, where a failure to engage means you can potentially be imprisoned.

And police are unique in that area, rather than the military being unique. 

If a lifeguard fails to preform his responsibilities and someone dies they absolutely will be civilly liable and possibly criminal charged with negligent homicide.

Consider the following: Person gets drunk at bar.  While driving home cop pulls driver over because car is swerving.  Police officers determines the driver is drunk but allows the driver to drive home anyway.  Driver than hits a motorcycle rider killing the rider.  The drunk will be both criminally and civilly liable.  The bartender and the bar will be civilly liable and in some jurisdictions even criminally liable. The police officer and the municipality will be neither civilly nor criminally liable.  The cop might loses his job, but that is the worst that can happen to him. 
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CF DolFan
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cf_dolfan
« Reply #11 on: May 02, 2019, 03:44:55 pm »


Consider the following: Person gets drunk at bar.  While driving home cop pulls driver over because car is swerving.  Police officers determines the driver is drunk but allows the driver to drive home anyway.  Driver than hits a motorcycle rider killing the rider.  The drunk will be both criminally and civilly liable.  The bartender and the bar will be civilly liable and in some jurisdictions even criminally liable. The police officer and the municipality will be neither civilly nor criminally liable.  The cop might loses his job, but that is the worst that can happen to him. 
I have no firsthand knowledge but I really can't see that being the case. Working for the government for many years and dealing with lawsuits I can tell you government agencies are liable for almost anything ... and if they knowingly haven't addressed the issue then they even are more liable. Something as simple as leaving a piece of sidewalk out can cause a lawsuit if someone trips on it.
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MyGodWearsAHoodie
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« Reply #12 on: May 02, 2019, 04:07:07 pm »

Difference with sidewalk is that is doing something wrong, as opposed to doing nothing.  You can't sue the municipality for not building a sidewalk.

Likewise cops can be sued for a wrongful arrest.  But they can't be sued if they decline to arrest someone that should have been arrested who then goes on to commit a crime.   

Hucko v. City of San Diego, 179 Cal.App.3d 520 (1986)
« Last Edit: May 02, 2019, 04:10:24 pm by MyGodWearsAHoodie » Logged

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CF DolFan
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cf_dolfan
« Reply #13 on: May 02, 2019, 06:25:11 pm »

Difference with sidewalk is that is doing something wrong, as opposed to doing nothing.  You can't sue the municipality for not building a sidewalk.

Likewise cops can be sued for a wrongful arrest.  But they can't be sued if they decline to arrest someone that should have been arrested who then goes on to commit a crime.   

Hucko v. City of San Diego, 179 Cal.App.3d 520 (1986)
You can sue them for not fixing the sidewalk after it was brought to their attention. And yes ... now with ADA you can sue for not having a sidewalk with accessibility. That's a tough one because it's actually a civil rights issue.
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Spider-Dan
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« Reply #14 on: May 02, 2019, 07:32:49 pm »

You can sue a city for building a sidewalk without wheelchair access, but you can't sue them for never building a sidewalk in that location to begin with.
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