Car anxiety

[Spider-Dan]

Didn't you own a Hybrid at some point?  How was that experience?

I've had a plug-in hybrid electric vehicle (PHEV) since 2013.  The particular model I have goes a little over 50 miles solely on battery power, and then switches to a gas engine for backup if I need to go farther before my next recharge.  So I drive roughly 12,000 miles a year and go through about two tanks of gas a year.

you could also look at a straight electric.

this is a good example of a low price electric car:

https://www.cars.com/vehicledetail/detail/776901951/overview/

13k .. about a 100 mile range  .. for a daily commute, it's a good car

I would not recommend a battery-only electric with <200 miles of range as anything but a second car at this time.  The experience is likely to be frustrating.

[pondwater]

A new Prius is straight up cheaper than a new Camry, so that comparison is even worse with new cars.  And I don't know what you mean by "this stage of their development," as the technology is pretty mature.  For example:
If the "biggest" issue you've had with your hybrid is a refrigerant leak in the A/C, that doesn't really have anything to do with the hybrid drivetrain.

That's my point, you're comparing apples to oranges. Compare a new Camry to a new Camry Hybrid, the hybrid premium in price is much more extreme. I haven't looked, but it's probably at least $4-5k difference. The Prius doesn't have an ICE equivalent of the same model, so you can't compare it to anything.

The AC problem has a lot to do with the hybrid system. Much of a Hybrid is run by the battery. Therefore if the AC problem has to do with the compressor, you'll need to replace it with an electric compressor. Many of the parts that are unique to a hybrid cost much more than they do on a regular vehicle. Labor is a whole other expensive issue on a hybrid.

[MyGodWearsAHoodie]

I've had a plug-in hybrid electric vehicle (PHEV) since 2013.  The particular model I have goes a little over 50 miles solely on battery power, and then switches to a gas engine for backup if I need to go farther before my next recharge.  So I drive roughly 12,000 miles a year and go through about two tanks of gas a year.
I would not recommend a battery-only electric with <200 miles of range as anything but a second car at this time.  The experience is likely to be frustrating.

Seems like a range of ~100 would work fine if you driving habits have you going over 50 miles so rarely you only use two tanks a year.  Either most of that very little  fuel was used in the 50 to 100 mile range or you had a very small number of mega trips.  If the former no big deal, if the later rent a car once or twice a year.

I know I only go over 100 miles twice a year, driving to vacation and driving home.  (about 150 miles) Could probably get by with a very long lunch each way.

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I drive 100 miles a day, 5 days a week, so it wouldn't work for me lol.

[MyGodWearsAHoodie]

I drive 100 miles a day, 5 days a week, so it wouldn't work for me lol.

Tesla.

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Tesla.

If I could afford one, I'd get one lol.  Even a used budget Model 3 is in the $40k+ range.  Says from $35k, but you won't find one that cheap.

[MyGodWearsAHoodie]

If I could afford one, I'd get one lol.  Even a used budget Model 3 is in the $40k+ range.  Says from $35k, but you won't find one that cheap.

Hear ya.  Tesla is my dream car.  If I hit powerball, that is the car I buy.  Would rather have a Tesla than Lamborghini or high end cars.

[Tenshot13]

Hear ya.  Tesla is my dream car.  If I hit powerball, that is the car I buy.  Would rather have a Tesla than Lamborghini or high end cars.

Yeah, I'd rather have both a nice Tesla and a nice truck vs. just a high end sports car.

[Spider-Dan]

That's my point, you're comparing apples to oranges. Compare a new Camry to a new Camry Hybrid, the hybrid premium in price is much more extreme. I haven't looked, but it's probably at least $4-5k difference.

Depending on trim, it is from $3800-4200 extra.  But that is more a statement on the poor bang-for-your-buck of a Camry Hybrid than it is a commentary on hybrid pricing.  When you shoehorn a hybrid system into a car not designed as a hybrid, you pay more for a worse product; when you buy a purpose-built hybrid like the Prius, you get a lot better value.

The AC problem has a lot to do with the hybrid system. Much of a Hybrid is run by the battery. Therefore if the AC problem has to do with the compressor, you'll need to replace it with an electric compressor.

That does not explain at all why a refrigerant leak would be any more likely in a hybrid.  Again: that's your own evaluation of the "biggest issue" you've had.

[Spider-Dan]

Seems like a range of ~100 would work fine if you driving habits have you going over 50 miles so rarely you only use two tanks a year.

There's a saying in the EV community: if you have a toilet that meets 95% of your needs, you need another toilet.

If I had to rent a car every time I drove 50 miles away, this would be an unacceptable state of events.  In many locations outside of airports, trying to rent a car late at night or on a Sunday is a headache.  So even though I only go through a couple of tanks a year, the fact that I don't have to anticipate and plan for rental cars makes an ENORMOUS difference.

It's like if you're single and the only car you have is a two-seat sportscar: most of the time you're fine, but your flexibility is nil.

[Fau Teixeira]

I would totally get a 100 mile range EV for my daily commute .. for sure. But then again i work 12 miles from my home and this would be our 2nd car. Seems like a fairly niche application. And my company has 2 EV charging stations installed for employee use.

We have 1 tesla X, 1 bmw I3, a couple of plugin hybrids and an e-Golf at the office. surprisingly the e-Golf is a really decent car. has good pickup and seems quality.

[pondwater]

Depending on trim, it is from $3800-4200 extra.  But that is more a statement on the poor bang-for-your-buck of a Camry Hybrid than it is a commentary on hybrid pricing.  When you shoehorn a hybrid system into a car not designed as a hybrid, you pay more for a worse product; when you buy a purpose-built hybrid like the Prius, you get a lot better value.

I would argue that "shoehorning" the hybrid system into an already established vehicle is cheaper than designing a hybrid vehicle from the ground up. And after looking up a few sources, I would also argue that the Camry Hybrid isn't a "worse" product. They're fairly equal on ratings. The main difference is the prices and mileage. The Camry is a nicer, more premium, and heavier car. Basically, it's nicer and rides better at the expense of fuel economy. In order to fully compare hybrid vs ICE vehicles value, you have to have to compare equals. Camry Hybrid vs Camry, Altima Hybrid vs Altima, Elantra Hybrid vs Elantra. Cars of equal size and weight with the only difference between the two being the power plant. Then you would compare the price vs fuel economy savings.

Here's an article that breaks the Prius down with a more compatible vehicle at 15K miles a year.  Toyota Prius @ $21,035 vs  Toyota Yaris @ $18,499, it would be almost 7.5 years to hit break even. And that's only a $2500 difference in price. A $4000 price difference would put you at 12 years to break even.

https://www.moneyunder30.com/does-fuel-efficient-car-save-money

That does not explain at all why a refrigerant leak would be any more likely in a hybrid.  Again: that's your own evaluation of the "biggest issue" you've had.

You are aware that the difference between a hybrid and a regular car is much more than just the drive train right? Besides the drivetrain, much of the car is different. My point (which i conveniently posted for you below) is that when there is an issue, more than likely it cost much more to fix on a hybrid.

Don't bother with the Hybrid. Unless you drive a shit ton of miles you'll never make up the extra cost difference on the mileage savings. Not to mention, it's a newer technology and if you have to fix something it costs a lot more.

I've had several expenses on this Hybrid that I have never had on a regular car. Case in point, my 12 volt battery went dead. Not the hybrid battery, the regular battery that every car has. In a normal car would cost around $100 +/-. Camry Hybrid, almost $500 due to being some kind of special deep cycle AGM battery with gas vents and a temperature sensor hardwired to the hybrid CPU.

The A/C is just the biggest thing I've had go wrong to date. Might be a simple fix or it might be a bad electric compressor, which again is unique to the hybrid and expensive. Not just part wise, labor wise. These hybrids have special non conductive oil in the compressors. You need special hybrid only equipment to evacuate and service the system so that it doesn't cross contaminate the hybrid system. So even if it's a simple fix, it's a pain in the ass and not worth the hassle or paying the super inflated labor. So if you take into account the extra cost of having to fix something down the road, it wipes any mileage savings that you might have. But that's only if you've made it to break even point first. God forbid the main traction battery goes bad on a hybrid after the warranty. At that point you just lost money by buying a hybrid. Might as well set it on fire in a field, report it stolen, and claim it on your insurance.

[Spider-Dan]

I would argue that "shoehorning" the hybrid system into an already established vehicle is cheaper than designing a hybrid vehicle from the ground up.

This isn't 2002.  The Prius has been around for over 20 years; the R&D costs on designing a hybrid "from the ground up" were paying off by the 3rd generation.  This is exactly why the Camry Hybrid (a mid-size car) costs more than a Prius (a full-size car).  Which brings me to my next point: the Yaris is literally the smallest and cheapest car Toyota offers.  Using that as the point of comparison does not tell you anything useful, as it is not of "equal size" to any Prius model.

edit: I know you didn't write the article comparing the Prius to a Yaris.  But that article is a - surprisingly recent! - version of the same type of article that was everywhere in the mid-00s, when all the anti-environmentalists were insisting that hybrids were a waste of money because they were far too expensive and you'd lose any meager savings on the inevitable battery replacement.  (I say that it's "surprisingly recent" because by 2013 or so, nearly all of the people who were insisting that hybrids are a waste of money had given up the ghost on that one, and moved on to insisting that EVs are a waste of money.  That article is like finding a MySpace page in 2019.)

I've had several expenses on this Hybrid that I have never had on a regular car. Case in point, my 12 volt battery went dead. Not the hybrid battery, the regular battery that every car has. In a normal car would cost around $100 +/-. Camry Hybrid, almost $500 due to being some kind of special deep cycle AGM battery with gas vents and a temperature sensor hardwired to the hybrid CPU.

Well, if you had a purpose-built 2009 Prius instead of a shoehorned-hybrid 2009 Camry Hybrid, your battery would have cost about $170.

The A/C is just the biggest thing I've had go wrong to date. Might be a simple fix or it might be a bad electric compressor, which again is unique to the hybrid and expensive.

Put simply: if the "biggest problem" you've had with your hybrid is an A/C refrigerant leak, it is hard to see how that is an indictment of hybrid drivetrain technology.  I mean, a week ago you said the problem was most likely "the evaporator behind the dash"... which, as far as I can tell, is the same in the hybrid and standard Camry.  So why is it suddenly the more-expensive electric compressor?  You didn't mention anything about the electric compressors being a common failure point.

It's like pointing out that the regenerative brakes on a hybrid - which can extend the life of brake pads by 3x or more - are "an expensive system specific to hybrids."  Well, yeah... but regenerative brakes rarely fail.  So at the end of the day, a more expensive component that a) is unlikely to fail and b) saves money... saves you money.

So if you take into account the extra cost of having to fix something down the road, it wipes any mileage savings that you might have. But that's only if you've made it to break even point first. God forbid the main traction battery goes bad on a hybrid after the warranty. At that point you just lost money by buying a hybrid.

From a link on the article you just cited:

"All the hybrid-specific components in every hybrid vehicle currently on the market are covered under warranty for eight years/100,000 miles or 10 years/150,000 miles, depending on the state, but these components have been shown to have a much longer lifespan in testing and in real-world conditions.

Toyota, for example, reports that its battery packs have lasted for more than 180,000 miles in testing. A large number of Ford Escape Hybrid and Toyota Prius taxicabs in New York and San Francisco have logged well over 200,000 miles on their original battery packs and are still running well."

The arguments about losing all your cost savings once you have to replace the battery worked in the mid-2000s when hybrids were unfamiliar technology, but hybrids have existed for too long for anyone to take those arguments seriously today.  You're more likely to have to replace the automatic transmission in a car with a gas engine than you are to have to replace the batteries in a hybrid.

[pondwater]

I presented an article that showed how long it takes to break even with mileage savings on hybrid vehicles. The range was 4.5-12 years when comparing like vehicle. Now if you want to argue the numbers, go argue them with the people who wrote the article. Argue your fuzzy math with them. I've already done the math and it matches up with what most other people say.

https://www.motortrend.com/news/hybrids-how-long-takes-get-money-back/

https://www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com/blog/hybrid-cars-dont-save-you-money-do-the-math/

Anyhow you win. Right now I don't have time for circular arguments with people who can't even do basic math and can't be wrong even when they are wrong. So Spider, you and your common core math are right and everyone else is wrong, like usual. Do you feel better now?

Edit - Interestingly the Lincoln MKZ and Buick LaCross save money the minute you drive them off the lot. Their hybrid models are the same price. So if you're actually interested in saving money on fuel instead of hopelessly trying to recoup your "hybrid bandwagon" upcharge for the next 5-12 years. Maybe you should focus on those 2 specific models. Otherwise, paying more for a hybrid and waiting 5-12 years for the fuel economy savings to even start is a chump's game. But then again, do people who can afford and buy Lincolns and Buicks really worry about saving a few hundred dollars a year on fuel costs?

 

[Tenshot13]

I think y'all would argue which of these is correct:  A half dozen of one or six of another.