Shame of the Game - Colts

[masterfins]

Miami got rid of players, obtained draft picks and gained flexibility in the cap all while sacrificing maybe a win, or two;

Yeah, BUT they traded probably the BEST two players that they have drafted in the past decade, young players not aging veterans, and now they will have to HOPE they can find two draftees as good to replace them.  So, although they have gained salary cap space going forward, they will be a worse team.

[Spider-Dan]

If MIA scores 3 more points over the first 3 quarters of the BUF game, they aren't trying an onside kick at the end because the game is tied.  That's hardly "smoked."  Similarly, if PIT doesn't have Minkah (so not even that MIA keeps him, but just doesn't trade him there), he doesn't get 2 INTs which lead to 14 points.  If you're counting those as games that were unwinnable even with Tunsil, Stills, and Minkah, I don't know what to tell you.  Even with the early season blowouts, MIA could easily be 4-5 with a squeezably soft second-half schedule.

The front office made decisions with the explicit intent of improving the Dolphins' draft pick position, in hopes of drafting a franchise QB.  Whether or not the team could have done better is frankly irrelevant; the intent is what matters.  So either you believe that the front office was trying to win every game possible this season, or you don't.

If this team, as constructed, finishes with 5 or 6 wins (and MIA cannot trade into the #1 pick), those trades will be among the worst in the history of the franchise.  There is approximately zero chance MIA will use those picks to draft players better than Tunsil or Minkah.

[Spider-Dan]

Let me just add this:

Trading away a player like Reshad or Stills is totally understandable.  And trading away Tunsil or Minkah for another young player (like Clowney or Ramsey) is also totally acceptable.  But trading away two of your three best young players - both on their rookie contracts! - for picks is just indefensible.  LT and DB are two of the cornerstone positions, and saying that you don't expect to be good soon enough to take advantage of their primes is just lunacy.

And I'm also not interested in hearing about how many picks MIA got for Tunsil.  How many picks would it take to make it a "good deal" for BAL to trade Lamar Jackson, or SF to trade Jimmy G?  There are certain positions you should not be gambling on.

[CF DolFan]

Let me just add this:

Trading away a player like Reshad or Stills is totally understandable.  And trading away Tunsil or Minkah for another young player (like Clowney or Ramsey) is also totally acceptable.  But trading away two of your three best young players - both on their rookie contracts! - for picks is just indefensible.  LT and DB are two of the cornerstone positions, and saying that you don't expect to be good soon enough to take advantage of their primes is just lunacy.

And I'm also not interested in hearing about how many picks MIA got for Tunsil.  How many picks would it take to make it a "good deal" for BAL to trade Lamar Jackson, or SF to trade Jimmy G?  There are certain positions you should not be gambling on.

I think they feel like getting a top QB is more difficult than a stud LT and they would be right. The Tunsil trade was all about getting ammunition to get a stud QB. If we fail to get one then that trade is as much of a bust as the Minkah trade. We are kind of in a wait and see mode until we see how that works out.

[masterfins]

I think they feel like getting a top QB is more difficult than a stud LT and they would be right. The Tunsil trade was all about getting ammunition to get a stud QB. If we fail to get one then that trade is as much of a bust as the Minkah trade. We are kind of in a wait and see mode until we see how that works out.

Perhaps, but having a top QB is worthless if your O-line, specifically your LT, can't stop anyone from killing your QB.

[Spider-Dan]

I think the four foundational positions are QB, LT, DE, and CB.  If you have a reliable player at one of those positions - especially on a rookie contract - you do not let them go, unless it's a trade for another reliable player at one of those positions.

[CF DolFan]

Perhaps, but having a top QB is worthless if your O-line, specifically your LT, can't stop anyone from killing your QB.

Our O-line is getting better and we have a shit load of money to throw at free agents in the offseason. I think you will see us add to our o-line depth with some of that money.

I think the four foundational positions are QB, LT, DE, and CB.  If you have a reliable player at one of those positions - especially on a rookie contract - you do not let them go, unless it's a trade for another reliable player at one of those positions.

We will see. Like I said previously we've had a few great LTs and it never helped us win much. I think if we can get the one position that eludes us the other pieces are easier to replace.

[Spider-Dan]

Like I said previously we've had a few great LTs and it never helped us win much. I think if we can get the one position that eludes us the other pieces are easier to replace.

If "great LTs didn't win MIA a ring" is the logic here, why is MIA chasing after a franchise QB, again?

I'm not being facetious, here.  By the standard given for success, if MIA drafts Tua and his career precisely mirrors Marino, this was all for naught.

If you want a dynasty, sure, you need a legendary, franchise savior QB.  But "dynasty" is not a reasonable goal.  A reasonable goal is a championship team, which you build by assembling good players in key positions, then hoping the breaks bounce your way. And you can't assemble a team of good players by getting rid of good young players.

[Fau Teixeira]

the dolphins are playing better and winning more games without minkah than with him ..

facts

[CF DolFan]

If "great LTs didn't win MIA a ring" is the logic here, why is MIA chasing after a franchise QB, again?

I'm not being facetious, here.  By the standard given for success, if MIA drafts Tua and his career precisely mirrors Marino, this was all for naught.

If you want a dynasty, sure, you need a legendary, franchise savior QB.  But "dynasty" is not a reasonable goal.  A reasonable goal is a championship team, which you build by assembling good players in key positions, then hoping the breaks bounce your way. And you can't assemble a team of good players by getting rid of good young players.

We won a hell of a lot more games with Dan Marino than Jake Long, Laremy Tunsil or even Jason Taylor. If Dan was suited up we at least had a chance to win any game. Other than Ricky in his prime ... no other player has had that affect and Dan was here a long time.

[Pappy13]

We won a hell of a lot more games with Dan Marino than Jake Long, Laremy Tunsil or even Jason Taylor. If Dan was suited up we at least had a chance to win any game. Other than Ricky in his prime ... no other player has had that affect and Dan was here a long time.

And no one could have predicted that Dan would be the guy that did that. It turned out that way, but no one knew that when they picked him. No one. The fallacy is not that picking a franchise QB can win you a lot of games, the fallacy is that you can predict who is going to be a franchise QB when you draft him.

[Spider-Dan]

With Marino, MIA made the playoffs a little under 60% of the time and had one SB appearance.  Is that the kind of outcome that would validate an 0-16 season?

[MaineDolFan]

There is approximately zero chance MIA will use those picks to draft players better than Tunsil or Minkah.

This is something I agree 100% with.

[CF DolFan]

With Marino, MIA made the playoffs a little under 60% of the time and had one SB appearance.  Is that the kind of outcome that would validate an 0-16 season?

Lol ... at this point, hell yes! I get what you are saying but if Miami uses the Tunsil pick to help move up and does get a long term answer at QB then myself and many others will feel it was justified. If they draft a random player then they effed up and it didn't work out like they gad planned.

[Spider-Dan]

Where we disagree is this: if your goal is to "be competitive" (e.g. make the playoffs more than half the time, maybe lose a SB or two) you don't need to trade away all your young talent and post multiple seasons with win totals you can count on your elbows.  You can just try normally and if you hit on some key picks and pick up a few quality FAs, you're good to go!

The most important factor is hiring the right head coach, and you don't need to tank for that.