Astros hammered in cheating scandal

[MyGodWearsAHoodie]

They had to seek someone to come up with the technology. Regular people have no idea in hell how to find and wire up a wireless buzzer to someone.

That is my point, what makes it worse was the level of organization and planning.

[MaineDolFan]

Just like the arguments that not all PEDs are the same, nor do the same thing.  Although it sounds like a cop out "you know the difference when you see it" is true.  It's different.

[Fau Teixeira]

I actually don't have a problem with what the astros did. And i'll tell you why.

Baseball is a dirty game that celebrates cheating and romanticizes cheating. They're only acting at all because it was reported about.
MLB was perfectly fine with McGuire and Sosa juicing and putting on a home run chase that single handedly saved baseball. They only started caring once newspapers started reporting about it, THEN suddenly Bonds became persona non grata.

The MLB hall of fame and voters are just as big of hypocrites. Gaylord Perry is in the hall for fucks sake. Cheating is romanticized in baseball. It's how the game works. It's how it's always worked. Didn't Ty Cobb famously say that if you ain't cheating you ain't trying?

MLB was built on a culture of cheating and it celebrates cheating. So seriously, who cares that the Astros cheated .. they were obviously trying.

[MaineDolFan]

^I disagree.  I may not have made it to the majors but I played at a high level.  As a player and, later, as a scout, everyone understands where the dirt is, and where the dirt can be.  I knew teams who were better at picking up our signs then other teams and we had to plan for it, our squad was pretty good at it as well.  A runner on second being able to identify trends and relaying those items to the dugout, in my opinion, isn't cheating; it is gamesmanship.  Just as me, as a pitcher, had to learn not to tip what I was going to throw.

There is a huge difference between gamesmanship and outright cheating.  How it's defined, sometimes, is up to a person's threshold.  Example, there are some who feel enhancing supplements are perfectly fine and it's up to the individual.  There are purists who feel it's a mortal sin and others, in the middle, who aren't worried about "the game," more than they are personal health.  They know they have more personal talent than the player at the locker to the left - but the player to the left is taking and now getting more looks.  So, how to keep up?

One of the largest obstacles of baseball is (unraveling a huge mystery for all of you, I know) - hitting the ball.  Me?  In college, on a team of head knocking fools, I was one of the lighter hitters on the team with a college BA of .261 / 17 / 61.  Where would my numbers have been if the rules of the game were the pitcher had to announce his pitch?  "10/6 curve!"  Well, I don't hit curves well and I know you can't throw them for strikes.  I'm laying off.  

Towards my senior year my arm became absolute garbage.  I knew I wasn't going any further and I didn't want to lose my last year with the boys so I pitched when I shouldn't have but my FB literally was the speed of my change; I became a junk-ball pitcher.  Good news for me, I could paint and I worked fast.  But, again, if these cats knew I was about to unleash hell and fire with my 78mph FB after nibbling corners to work them into a bind?  I wouldn't have made it out of the season.

The point is they didn't know.  And, even at this age, I could warm up and still get a lot of weekend warriors out.  So imagine when you take that to a level of professional hitters who knock the ever living bejesus out of balls and make it look easy?

When you take the "knowing" out of the game you might as well, literally, not play.  And if that's your take, to fold MLB, okay; but I think that's unreasonable.

[CF DolFan]

Bwhahahahaha from TMZ Sports

https://www.tmz.com/2020/01/16/mike-clevinger-indians-houston-astros-cheating-scandal-steroids/

INDIANS' MIKE CLEVINGER
GOES SCORCHED EARTH ON ASTROS
... 'Worse Than Steroids'

"That's another part that pisses me off. That lineup's talented enough that I think if they just had the due diligence to do the regular baseball s**t -- pick one, I'm tipping whatever -- they'd do damage."
"You have buddies that if they knew what was coming would be perennial All-Stars in the big leagues, dude."
Clevinger says the impact of cheating could have serious consequences for borderline players who are trying to make it to the majors the right way but losing jobs to people who cheat.
"But, to each their own. I'm not going to sit here and just be quiet about someone blatantly taking millions of dollars and food off my table, let alone other people's tables."
"I don't think any of those motherf**kers should be able to look us in the eye. They should feel ashamed."
Clevinger finished his rant by essentially saying the punishment handed down by MLB doesn't fit the crime ... because the players will still be champs and the team only loses $5 million.
"This is worse than steroids."

That's Cleveland Indians superstar Mike Clevinger going OFF on the Houston Astros ... ripping them for getting caught in a massive cheating scandal!!

"They shouldn’t feel comfortable looking at any of us in the eye let alone on the field," Clevinger said. "And any other MLB player feel different, they can get it too."

[MaineDolFan]

I don't blame any team for being beside themselves.  I think a lot of Houston players are going to have to wear body armor during ABs next year (maybe Boston as well, depending on what comes out of that).

[Spider-Dan]

The level of planning and involvement.  

“Hey Joe if you know it is going to be a breaking ball let me know”

“How?”

“I dunno ... bang on this trash can”.

-VS-

Involving purchasing equipment and wiring up a player.

But the REAL "planning and involvement" - the crucial element that makes this entire scheme work - is the highly sophisticated hidden camera live video feed directly to the clubhouse.  Once we've acknowledged that exists, what does it matter if they used buzzers or trash cans to communicate what the video feed told them?

It's like if you hacked into another team's e-mail server to steal their scouting reports... does it matter if you later communicated that information using hand-written sticky notes vs. an internal secure chat app?  The original information gathering technology should be the concern, not the method in which you communicated the illicit information.

[MyGodWearsAHoodie]

^I disagree.  I may not have made it to the majors but I played at a high level.  As a player and, later, as a scout, everyone understands where the dirt is, and where the dirt can be.  I knew teams who were better at picking up our signs then other teams and we had to plan for it, our squad was pretty good at it as well.  A runner on second being able to identify trends and relaying those items to the dugout, in my opinion, isn't cheating; it is gamesmanship.  Just as me, as a pitcher, had to learn not to tip what I was going to throw.

There is a huge difference between gamesmanship and outright cheating.  How it's defined, sometimes, is up to a person's threshold.  Example, there are some who feel enhancing supplements are perfectly fine and it's up to the individual.  There are purists who feel it's a mortal sin and others, in the middle, who aren't worried about "the game," more than they are personal health.  They know they have more personal talent than the player at the locker to the left - but the player to the left is taking and now getting more looks.  So, how to keep up?

One of the largest obstacles of baseball is (unraveling a huge mystery for all of you, I know) - hitting the ball.  Me?  In college, on a team of head knocking fools, I was one of the lighter hitters on the team with a college BA of .261 / 17 / 61.  Where would my numbers have been if the rules of the game were the pitcher had to announce his pitch?  "10/6 curve!"  Well, I don't hit curves well and I know you can't throw them for strikes.  I'm laying off.  

Towards my senior year my arm became absolute garbage.  I knew I wasn't going any further and I didn't want to lose my last year with the boys so I pitched when I shouldn't have but my FB literally was the speed of my change; I became a junk-ball pitcher.  Good news for me, I could paint and I worked fast.  But, again, if these cats knew I was about to unleash hell and fire with my 78mph FB after nibbling corners to work them into a bind?  I wouldn't have made it out of the season.

The point is they didn't know.  And, even at this age, I could warm up and still get a lot of weekend warriors out.  So imagine when you take that to a level of professional hitters who knock the ever living bejesus out of balls and make it look easy?

When you take the "knowing" out of the game you might as well, literally, not play.  And if that's your take, to fold MLB, okay; but I think that's unreasonable.

Is the top teams spending almost 4x as much on payroll as bottom teams cheating or gamesmanship?  As far as I am concerned until you remove that aspect of the game MLB can never claim to be a fair sport.  Some may claim the Astros stole the title, the Yankees have bought theirs.

[MaineDolFan]

Is the top teams spending almost 4x as much on payroll as bottom teams cheating or gamesmanship?  As far as I am concerned until you remove that aspect of the game MLB can never claim to be a fair sport.  Some may claim the Astros stole the title, the Yankees have bought theirs.

I think this is a dangerous analogy and it's borderline bitter.  Every team has the ability to do the same, MLB operates under the same rules. 

The owner of the Oakland A's is worth 2 billion.  The owner of the Red Sox, John Henry, is worth 2.5 billion.  I understand the values of the actual franchises are vastly different, however the ability to spend and invest?  The owner of the Twins is worth 3.6 billion.  It's funny how they weren't spending any money until recently when the son took over. 

I will say the same thing to you that I've said to Sunstroke for, what?  20 years now?  Add a hard floor, along with a cap, and we can talk.  Because as long as you have 9/10th of the wealthiest owners in MLB running the worst teams, I don't want to hear this (I especially don't want to hear it compared to cheating).

[MyGodWearsAHoodie]

I would agree with the idea of a hard floor along with the cap.  I like the NFL model of floor, ceiling and revenue sharing. I would also support requiring MILB player to be paid a comparable salary as AHL or NFL practice squad players rather than making sub-minimum wages. 

The actual net worth of the owner is irrelevant.  A team needs to be profitable.  If the Marlins were to spend as much as Yankees they would stop being a profitable business.  The system CHEATS small market team. 

BTW I am a fan of a large market team. 

[EDGECRUSHER]

I would agree with the idea of a hard floor along with the cap.  I like the NFL model of floor, ceiling and revenue sharing. I would also support requiring MILB player to be paid a comparable salary as AHL or NFL practice squad players rather than making sub-minimum wages. 

The actual net worth of the owner is irrelevant.  A team needs to be profitable.  If the Marlins were to spend as much as Yankees they would stop being a profitable business.  The system CHEATS small market team. 

BTW I am a fan of a large market team. 

The Marlins would be a profitable team if they weren't run by morons and people who spent their last nickel to buy the team. If they invested in the team, they would be better and draw more and sell more jerseys and get a better TV deal. I don't think they would ever make more than the Yankees and Red Sox but their lack of profitability is due to their own stupidity.

Yes, as a Yankee fan I am calling Derek Jeter an asshole, idiot and terrible team owner because he is.

[BuccaneerBrad]

The Marlins would be a profitable team if they weren't run by morons and people who spent their last nickel to buy the team. If they invested in the team, they would be better and draw more and sell more jerseys and get a better TV deal. I don't think they would ever make more than the Yankees and Red Sox but their lack of profitability is due to their own stupidity.

Yes, as a Yankee fan I am calling Derek Jeter an asshole, idiot and terrible team owner because he is.

Let's see.   The Marlins are owned by a former Yankee great and managed by another former Yankee great.  And two years ago, they traded their star outfielder to none other than the Yankees for piecemeal.   Do you really not see what's going on here?

[EDGECRUSHER]

Let's see.   The Marlins are owned by a former Yankee great and managed by another former Yankee great.  And two years ago, they traded their star outfielder to none other than the Yankees for piecemeal.   Do you really not see what's going on here?

I don't begrudge anyone for making that connection but the reality is they were just incompetent. Management publicly stated that they were broke and wanted to shed payroll, so right off the bat they killed their own trade leverage. Top that with Giancarlo's no-trade clause and it was either trade him to the Yankees or pay him the money you didn't want to pay him. The Marlins are embarrassingly run and the #1 reason why you don't buy a sports franchise to make money and with your last dollar.

With the Rockies right now, they are killing themselves with Nolan Arenado. He has a full no-trade clause and they are publicly shopping him. They don't want to spend anymore money to improve the team and Nolan says they lied to him and said they would. They are screwed. They either trade him for one bad minor league player or they watch him opt out of his contract in 2 years and they get nothing while paying him big money to play on a last placed team.

Whatever brains these owners had to build their fortunes has not translated well to the sports world.

P.S. I bring up Nolan because if he is traded anywhere it's probably to the Yankees in an almost exact repeat of the Giancarlo Stanton situation.

[BuccaneerBrad]

I don't begrudge anyone for making that connection but the reality is they were just incompetent. Management publicly stated that they were broke and wanted to shed payroll, so right off the bat they killed their own trade leverage. Top that with Giancarlo's no-trade clause and it was either trade him to the Yankees or pay him the money you didn't want to pay him. The Marlins are embarrassingly run and the #1 reason why you don't buy a sports franchise to make money and with your last dollar.

With the Rockies right now, they are killing themselves with Nolan Arenado. He has a full no-trade clause and they are publicly shopping him. They don't want to spend anymore money to improve the team and Nolan says they lied to him and said they would. They are screwed. They either trade him for one bad minor league player or they watch him opt out of his contract in 2 years and they get nothing while paying him big money to play on a last placed team.

Whatever brains these owners had to build their fortunes has not translated well to the sports world.

P.S. I bring up Nolan because if he is traded anywhere it's probably to the Yankees in an almost exact repeat of the Giancarlo Stanton situation.

The Marlins have become the greatest AAA team in the majors.   And they happen to be the Yankees personal farm club.   That's all there is to it.   

The Rays at least try to compete.  Let's hope they get a new stadium in a better location.  By the fairgrounds would be ideal.

[Spider-Dan]

I think this is a dangerous analogy and it's borderline bitter.  Every team has the ability to do the same, MLB operates under the same rules. 

The owner of the Oakland A's is worth 2 billion.  The owner of the Red Sox, John Henry, is worth 2.5 billion.  I understand the values of the actual franchises are vastly different, however the ability to spend and invest?  The owner of the Twins is worth 3.6 billion.  It's funny how they weren't spending any money until recently when the son took over. 

I will say the same thing to you that I've said to Sunstroke for, what?  20 years now?  Add a hard floor, along with a cap, and we can talk.  Because as long as you have 9/10th of the wealthiest owners in MLB running the worst teams, I don't want to hear this (I especially don't want to hear it compared to cheating).

I don't think that personal wealth of the owner is a fair metric.  The market you're in, and the revenue that you get from that market, has a much bigger impact, and it doesn't require the owner to go broke fielding a winner.

If MLB had revenue sharing along the same lines as the NFL or NBA, then I think a soft cap+luxury tax (with a salary floor, of course) is enough to balance the scales.