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Author Topic: Suggested police reform  (Read 6343 times)
Dave Gray
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« on: June 01, 2020, 02:29:32 pm »

Three steps to make things better, right away.

1) Mandatory body cameras on every officer that is on duty.  This is no-brainer, it would protect good police, it would harm bad police.

2) Police must carry individual insurance.  Doctors, plumbers, ...so many jobs require you to be insured.  This would make sure that the citizens don't have to pay the lawsuits to bail out shitty cops, where the system just goes on as it was before.  Cops that have too many complaints and incidents would have too high of insurance to operate.  You couldn't just be a shitty cop in city A, get fired, then go work in city B as the same asshole.  And ultimately, money is what will change this.

3) Specifics ethics laws that require police to be held accountable for the actions of the people on their call, where this is a possibility of de-escalation.

Three easy solutions, not targeted at anyone specifically that will help good police.
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CF DolFan
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« Reply #1 on: June 01, 2020, 02:36:59 pm »

I agree with #1. Number two isn't feasible. Cops are already low paid. They represent the law and order of the judicial system and should be insured by them. Not sure how I feel about 3 just yet.

The bottom line is there are bad employees in every line of work. Bad plumbers, executives, janitorial services etc.  You will never ever totally get rid of them. A white deaf guy got shot because they didn't know he was deaf and he didn't know what was going on.  That's another horrible situation but I can guarantee you the police officer involved didn't go to work thinking about killing a deaf white guy.  
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Dave Gray
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« Reply #2 on: June 01, 2020, 02:44:29 pm »

I have no doubt that most police are very good people.

But the system that they hold up is not good.  The system asks them to protect each other.  But their job is to protect us. 

It's very similar to Catholic priests molesting kids.  Most priests aren't molesting, but the church that they hold up was protecting the old ways. 

Also, #2 is totally feasible.  If cops need to be paid more, then pay it -- capitalism will work that out....better than paying multi-million dollar settlements to the families of dead people.  Plenty of blue-collar jobs require insurance.
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« Reply #3 on: June 01, 2020, 02:48:08 pm »

Three steps to make things better, right away.

1) Mandatory body cameras on every officer that is on duty.  This is no-brainer, it would protect good police, it would harm bad police.

2) Police must carry individual insurance.  Doctors, plumbers, ...so many jobs require you to be insured.  This would make sure that the citizens don't have to pay the lawsuits to bail out shitty cops, where the system just goes on as it was before.  Cops that have too many complaints and incidents would have too high of insurance to operate.  You couldn't just be a shitty cop in city A, get fired, then go work in city B as the same asshole.  And ultimately, money is what will change this.

3) Specifics ethics laws that require police to be held accountable for the actions of the people on their call, where this is a possibility of de-escalation.

Three easy solutions, not targeted at anyone specifically that will help good police.

I'm OK with all of this...but can appreciate the fact that law enforcement should be paid enough to handle that sort of insurance requirement.

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Dave Gray
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« Reply #4 on: June 01, 2020, 02:51:55 pm »

I'm OK with all of this...but can appreciate the fact that law enforcement should be paid enough to handle that sort of insurance requirement.

Most definitely.

The suggestion of insurance is not to hurt cops.  I love and respect cops and the job they do.  I want to help them become better and have the good rise to the top.  Insurance to protect the good ones seems smart.
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MyGodWearsAHoodie
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« Reply #5 on: June 01, 2020, 06:48:21 pm »

Make it easier to fire bad cops.

Require cops to report any abuse by fellow officers.  Failure to report is a felony.

All settlements for police brutality comes out of the police pension fund instead of being paid by taxpayers.

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« Reply #6 on: June 02, 2020, 12:00:56 am »

Unfortunately, it looks like body cameras don't work as well as we thought they might.

The problem is accountability... the police have none.  Body cameras or no, the police know that they will not be held accountable for their abuses of power.

I see the solution as threefold:

1) Increased personal and professional accountability for police.  The default action for when an officer justifiably takes a civilian's life should be forced retirement, with continuing service being a rare exception (e.g. killing an active shooter).  If you kill a civilian, and you can convince the relevant authorities that you had legitimate reason to believe they were a threat, then fine... but we don't need you as a cop any longer.  Police that are fired for any misconduct related to police brutality should immediately be subject to criminal liability for their actions.

2) A national do-not-hire list for cops fired due to misconduct.   A person empowered to use violence on behalf of the government must meet the strictest standard of ethics.   The current system, in which a cop gets fired in one city and rehired shortly thereafter in another city's police dept. 30 miles away, is unacceptable.

3) Every police department in the country must be federally mandated to have civilian oversight; no more Internal Affairs reviews where cops sweep other cops' violations under the rug.  Furthermore, each state should have its own state DOJ office that handles nothing but prosecution of police.  There is an unacceptable conflict of interest for local DAs who need cops' cooperation to get convictions in their day-to-day business.

Separate from the above, I think another big issue is that police depts. are increasingly hiring from outside of their jurisdiction.  This leads to officers having an outsider's mentality of enforcing the law on strangers, instead of the mentality of a peacekeeper protecting and serving their own community.  Unfortunately, I can't think of a practical way to force police depts. to recruit locally.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2020, 12:08:18 am by Spider-Dan » Logged

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« Reply #7 on: June 02, 2020, 09:24:24 am »

I have a question about #1. Aren't police able to turn off those cameras? Would definitely help good cops, but not sure it would prevent a bad cop.
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CF DolFan
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« Reply #8 on: June 02, 2020, 10:17:29 am »

I have a question about #1. Aren't police able to turn off those cameras? Would definitely help good cops, but not sure it would prevent a bad cop.
Yes but two cops in Louisville who killed someone in the riots had their cameras turned off. Both of them have been put on leave and their Captain was fired immediately. All are under investigation. I forgot to turn them on is no longer a excuse. Even though it seems like it was legit return fire (two National Guardsmen also fired and other cameras seem to support it) the fact the cameras were not on will cost them.
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MyGodWearsAHoodie
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« Reply #9 on: June 02, 2020, 11:26:14 am »

Unfortunately, I can't think of a practical way to force police depts. to recruit locally.

That one is easy.  In most places hiring is done on a point scale.  1 point for each year you have lived in the jurisdiction prior to being hired up to a maximum of 10 points.  Likewise living in the jurisdiction counts towards promotion points. 
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« Reply #10 on: June 02, 2020, 12:30:08 pm »

That one is easy.  In most places hiring is done on a point scale.  1 point for each year you have lived in the jurisdiction prior to being hired up to a maximum of 10 points.  Likewise living in the jurisdiction counts towards promotion points. 

I definitely see the logic in what you are trying to accomplish with that.  Hire law enforcement officers who have a vested interest in the community because they live there.  But the downside is that you then create the unintended consequence of not being able to hire the best person for the position.  Maybe in large cities, the candidate pool would be large enough that it wouldn't be a problem.  But in smaller towns, it would be.  There are already too many (emotionally) unqualified cops.  I fear that limiting the candidate pool or at least tilting the recruitment process in favor of "locals" would just exacerbate that problem.  Heck, I live in an affluent suburb and even our local PD has so much trouble recruiting qualified, GOOD candidates that they have started advertising out of state for police recruits. 
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« Reply #11 on: June 02, 2020, 01:01:45 pm »

As a medical provider I have to have umbrella coverage.  Why isn't #2 feasible?  I agree with this.  It's not expensive.  Yes, I am covered by the hospital (under my circumstances) but the coverage isn't enough.

I also think #1 needs to be strict - like, mess with the camera is an automatic termination, felony, strict. 
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MyGodWearsAHoodie
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« Reply #12 on: June 02, 2020, 01:32:09 pm »

I definitely see the logic in what you are trying to accomplish with that.  Hire law enforcement officers who have a vested interest in the community because they live there.  But the downside is that you then create the unintended consequence of not being able to hire the best person for the position.  Maybe in large cities, the candidate pool would be large enough that it wouldn't be a problem.  But in smaller towns, it would be.  There are already too many (emotionally) unqualified cops.  I fear that limiting the candidate pool or at least tilting the recruitment process in favor of "locals" would just exacerbate that problem.  Heck, I live in an affluent suburb and even our local PD has so much trouble recruiting qualified, GOOD candidates that they have started advertising out of state for police recruits. 

I would argue that if police officers A got a 90 on some multiple choice test on policing but doesn't know the neighborhoods and needs a GPS to get from the station to the nearest school.  And officer B only got a 75 but knows where all the crack houses are and has a network of 50 family and friends who will contact him with leads when something goes down.  Then B is the better cancanidate
 
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Phishfan
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« Reply #13 on: June 02, 2020, 01:40:57 pm »

I would argue that if police officers A got a 90 on some multiple choice test on policing but doesn't know the neighborhoods and needs a GPS to get from the station to the nearest school.  And officer B only got a 75 but knows where all the crack houses are and has a network of 50 family and friends who will contact him with leads when something goes down.  Then B is the better cancanidate
 

Maybe but definitely over simplified. Where did those 15 points get lost? Was it psychological, was it actual rule of law,  was it race relations,  etc. Also how  long would it take the other applicant to figure out his way around town?
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MyGodWearsAHoodie
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« Reply #14 on: June 02, 2020, 03:05:21 pm »

Maybe but definitely over simplified. Where did those 15 points get lost? Was it psychological, was it actual rule of law,  was it race relations,  etc. Also how  long would it take the other applicant to figure out his way around town?

Definitely oversimpified.

But keeping it oversimplified.  He lost the 15 points because he isn’t very good with standard written English and reading comprehension.  He is however, fluent in ebonics and inner-city spanglish.  And how long for A to catch up on the neighborhood?   A person raised in Beverly Hills is never going to develop the contacts and insights that someone who grew up in south central.  And likewise the brother that grew up in south central wouldn’t do that well patrolling Bev Hills.   
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