Dolphins will remain in the locker room during the National Anthem

[Dave Gray]

The thing that upsets me about this is that it's so manufactured and people have been conditioned to be upset by it.

The American Flag is not a military symbol.  It's no more the military's flag than it is a worker's union or a church or an individual or a political party or a website.  The American Flag represent TDMMC every once as much as it represents the Army.  The Army has their own flag.

People who equate the American Flag to military service and then are offended by people kneeling -- the real heart of it -- is that they don't believe the reason for kneeling is just.

Had Tim Tebow silently kneeled during the National Anthem to protest abortion in this country, do you really think that there'd be outrage?  You KNOW there wouldn't be, because it's false outrage. 

[CF DolFan]

The thing that upsets me about this is that it's so manufactured and people have been conditioned to be upset by it.

The American Flag is not a military symbol.  It's no more the military's flag than it is a worker's union or a church or an individual or a political party or a website.  The American Flag represent TDMMC every once as much as it represents the Army.  The Army has their own flag.

People who equate the American Flag to military service and then are offended by people kneeling -- the real heart of it -- is that they don't believe the reason for kneeling is just.

Had Tim Tebow silently kneeled during the National Anthem to protest abortion in this country, do you really think that there'd be outrage?  You KNOW there wouldn't be, because it's false outrage.  

I completely disagree. I don't think it is manufactured. I think it's pride in ownership. The American flag has stood as a symbol of freedom and justice for over 244 years. The Stars and Stripes embodies the very qualities that make our nation great: liberty, justice, freedom, love of country and national purpose. Every single person who pulled up their boot straps, fought and died to give us these rights is represented by the flag and the national anthem. This should be something to bring us together under common ground and not divided. This may not be a perfect country but the fact these people laid out their lives is worthy of our respect.

Most of you are too young to remember but in 1976 the whole country spent a year celebrating our country. I grew up in Sanford so I can assure you blacks and whites were celebrating it together. It wasn't a celebration of our differences but our common ground. Unfortunately pride in country has gone by the wayside just like manners and common decency. It's now much cooler and brave to be rude and disrespectful.

[Dolphster]

The thing that upsets me about this is that it's so manufactured and people have been conditioned to be upset by it.

The American Flag is not a military symbol.  It's no more the military's flag than it is a worker's union or a church or an individual or a political party or a website.  The American Flag represent TDMMC every once as much as it represents the Army.  The Army has their own flag.

People who equate the American Flag to military service and then are offended by people kneeling -- the real heart of it -- is that they don't believe the reason for kneeling is just.

Had Tim Tebow silently kneeled during the National Anthem to protest abortion in this country, do you really think that there'd be outrage?  You KNOW there wouldn't be, because it's false outrage. 

Dave, I am not outraged or anything like that when people kneel.  I would prefer that they didn't, but personally I'm not outraged by it.  As for the flag not being a military symbol, I have to respectfully disagree.  Ask someone in the military what happens to them if when on base the national anthem is played or the flag is raised or lowered and they just keep on strolling along.  On base, when the national anthem is played or the flag is raised or lowered, personnel in uniform are to stand at attention and salute.  Service members out of uniform are to stand at attention, place their right hand over their heart or may also salute.  Civilians on base are to place their right hand, or a hat if they are wearing one, over their heart.  Service members performing physical training and wearing a PT uniform outdoors are to stop, stand at attention and render a salute.  Vehicles in motion are to pull over and stop their vehicle.  So to that extent, the American flag is very much a military symbol.  And any military member who does not do the above when the anthem is being played or the flag is being raised or lowered will get a new ass thoroughly ripped by the nearest officer or non-commissioned officer who sees it and they will most likely receive a punishment as well.  Even if the flag is nowhere in sight on base, when the anthem is being played, etc. the service members are to stand facing where the flag would be and do the above. 

[masterfins]

I know that you aren't interested in truth or my "position".  Only in antagonizing.  I've seen your game enough years here to know your game.  After all, your initial entry on this site years ago was solely for the purpose of being a Patriots troll trying to irritate Dolphins fans.  So even though you have evolved somewhat over the years, at the core you are really still just a troll.   But what the hell, I'm bored enough to respond.  You made 5 statements about Trump to me.  Yet my post didn't mention Trump once.  I said nothing about Trump and he has nothing to do with anything that I was talking about.  I know you think that everyone fits into neat little categories that you have invented.  "Everyone who isn't a liberal loves Trump." "Every cop loves to beat innocent people for no reason."  "Everyone who respects the flag is a racist."  I don't like Trump as a person at all.  He is an arrogant, pompous ass.  I like some of the things he has done as president, I dislike other things he has done as president.  I certainly don't like the way that he speaks and conducts himself.  But again, not sure why you went on a Trump tirade when my post never mentioned him once.  I also never said that I find it "unacceptable" (your word) for players to wait in the locker room.  I love the fact that we live in a country where they have the freedom to do that.  Do I like it?  Nope.  Do I agree with it?  Nope.  But you see, some of us (not including you) are mature enough that we can disagree with what other people do and still defend their right to do it.   And oh, by the way, my comments were to DZA, not you.  And even though I disagree with him, I have about a million more times the respect for him that I have for you.   See, that is another thing that mature people do. We can disagree with someone and still respect them and their opinions.  

 I'm also still waiting for you to apologize to everyone for that video you posted a while back that you said was "proof" that the police were unloading bricks on the street to set up the rioters to throw them.  Only for me to respond with the real truth where NBC said that they verified that the police were actually unloading the bricks at the police station that they had taken OFF the street to keep people from throwing them.   But that isn't your style, is it Hoodie.  When you are proven wrong, you even lack the class to utter a simple, "my bad".  You completely ignored my response with the truth about that story.  Because that is what trolls do.  They try to incite others by completely ignoring what the other people actually say and make up things and leap  to erroneous conclusions.  "Oh, Dolphster said he doesn't agree with players staying in the locker room during the anthem.  So, how long have you been a Trump loving Nazi, Dolphster?"   There are plenty of people here who still fall for your game.  I recommend you stick to antagonizing them.  They are much more likely to fall for your routine than I am.  Troll on, my friend, troll on.   Oh, and I will leave you with one more bit of material to work with.  I haven't decided yet, but I probably won't be voting for Trump OR Biden in the election.  I'm currently leaning towards Jo Jorgensen the Libertarian candidate.  

I encourage everyone reading this to go back and read my reply to DZA and how I mentioned multiple times that I respected his opinion even if I disagreed with it.  In fact, we weren't even talking about staying in the locker room.  We were talking about whether most of the military feels the same way.  Then read Hoody's nonsensical vitriol that he spewed in response to me.  The comments that he made have absolutely nothing to do with anything in my post.  Just a troll doing what trolls do.   He has Trump Derangement Syndrome so bad that someone could post, "I like sunny days" and Hoody would respond, "You Trump loving bastard, why do you hate minorities?"

Well said Dolphster.  When I read Hoodies reply I thought to myself what the hell is he talking about, Dolphster said absolutely nothing about Trump, nor his support of Trump.  But there are quite a few people on this site that are so anti-Trump that that's all they can see.  I've tuned out of this site for awhile because of that, I'm only back because I wanted to read & comment about Dolphins Football.  I guess I need to be more selective in which threads I open.

[Pappy13]

The thing that upsets me about this is that it's so manufactured and people have been conditioned to be upset by it.

The American Flag is not a military symbol.  It's no more the military's flag than it is a worker's union or a church or an individual or a political party or a website.  The American Flag represent TDMMC every once as much as it represents the Army.  The Army has their own flag.

People who equate the American Flag to military service and then are offended by people kneeling -- the real heart of it -- is that they don't believe the reason for kneeling is just.

Had Tim Tebow silently kneeled during the National Anthem to protest abortion in this country, do you really think that there'd be outrage?  You KNOW there wouldn't be, because it's false outrage. 

Dave, what makes you think it has ANYTHING to do with the Military? Check out the link below. When the American flag is presented you STAND at attention. Simple as that. That's been flag etiquette since the flag was made 200 years ago. Not sure what ANYONE doesn't understand about it.

https://www.usflagsupply.com/flag-etiquette.html?gclid=CjwKCAjwwab7BRBAEiwAapqpTFqIbG8EicWGMrDW62OzxZaSR9HSy6lZNLosJbXspjA0a6GliGhe8xoCCVQQAvD_BwE

Here's the important part.

171. Conduct during playing

During rendition of the national anthem when the flag is displayed, all present except those in uniform should stand at attention facing the flag with the right hand over the heart. Men not in uniform should remove their headdress with their right hand and hold it at the left shoulder, the hand being over the heart. Persons in uniform should render the military salute at the first note of the anthem and retain this position until the last note. When the flag is not displayed, those present should face toward the music and act in the same manner they would if the flag were displayed there.

[Spider-Dan]

Dave, what makes you think it has ANYTHING to do with the Military?

Because many people - including some who are posting in this thread - have continually insisted that kneeling during the anthem is an insult to the troops.

Not an insult to the government - everyone hates the government anyway!  Not Congress, not the President, not our judges or even the cops that the protest is LITERALLY about.  No, it's an insult to "the troops."

[Dolphster]

Because many people - including some who are posting in this thread - have continually insisted that kneeling during the anthem is an insult to the troops.

Not an insult to the government - everyone hates the government anyway!  Not Congress, not the President, not our judges or even the cops that the protest is LITERALLY about.  No, it's an insult to "the troops."

Spider, I agree with you that it isn't an insult to the troops.  I think maybe where the line gets a little blurred is that to "most" military member and veterans, the flag and the anthem are both an important symbol to them.  It is instilled in them from day one (you could probably even call it indoctrinated) and reinforced constantly to them.   It is probably one of those things that wouldn't make sense to anyone who was never in the military.  So even though I agree with you that it isn't an insult to the troops themselves, a lot of military members and veterans take it as an insult to a symbol that is important to them.  I did get a laugh out of your "everyone hates the government anyway" comment.  I think that is one thing that pretty much all of us can agree upon.    I often say, "I love my country.  It is the government that I'm not so crazy about."

[Dave Gray]

Spider, I agree with you that it isn't an insult to the troops.  I think maybe where the line gets a little blurred is that to "most" military member and veterans, the flag and the anthem are both an important symbol to them.  It is instilled in them from day one (you could probably even call it indoctrinated) and reinforced constantly to them.   It is probably one of those things that wouldn't make sense to anyone who was never in the military.  So even though I agree with you that it isn't an insult to the troops themselves, a lot of military members and veterans take it as an insult to a symbol that is important to them.

I agree with this, but what I feel is lost here is that I ALSO LOVE THE FLAG.  I have a general dislike of military worship and all the other jingoism that comes with it, but I take issue that the flag is somehow a conservative symbol that they've taken as their own and that a protest of the flag (which represents the country) somehow represents the military.  It's also my symbol.  But it's a personal value.

mod edit: fixed broken formatting

[Dolphster]

I agree with this, but what I feel is lost here is that I ALSO LOVE THE FLAG.  I have a general dislike of military worship and all the other jingoism that comes with it, but I take issue that the flag is somehow a conservative symbol that they've taken as their own and that a protest of the flag (which represents the country) somehow represents the military.  It's also my symbol.  But it's a personal value.

I've got no problem with your take on that at all.   As you probably have figured out by now, I don't like extremism from either side of the political spectrum.  And I totally agree with you that it is ridiculous to think that the flag is only a conservative symbol.  A lot of it goes back to what I have said many times here that I'm grateful to live in a country where people are free to protest and civilians are free to not stand or whatever during the anthem as long as they aren't disrupting those who do choose to stand.  If I were in a stadium and the person next to me chose not to stand for the anthem, I would never say a word to them.  That is their right.  Now having said that, to be completely honest, if I were out on the street and someone was trying to light an American flag on fire, I would knock them on their ass and take it from them.  Would that be right of me to do?  I suppose that is debatable.  But that is what I would do.  

mod edit: fixed broken formatting

[Dave Gray]

I like it when I see someone trying to light the flag on fire and someone else grabs it.  ...I'm not offended, but fuck that guy.

I also support the guy's right to burn it.  I don't care myself.  It's just funny, because I think that guy burning the flag is probably a douche.

Kneeling or turning your back or not wearing a flag pin or not saying the pledge or conducting during the National Anthem.  ...I don't give a shit about any of that.  It's fake bullshit.

[Dolphster]

I like it when I see someone trying to light the flag on fire and someone else grabs it.  ...I'm not offended, but fuck that guy.

I also support the guy's right to burn it.  I don't care myself.  It's just funny, because I think that guy burning the flag is probably a douche.

Kneeling or turning your back or not wearing a flag pin or not saying the pledge or conducting during the National Anthem.  ...I don't give a shit about any of that.  It's fake bullshit.

I dig the way you roll in here, Dave.  Even when I don't see exactly eye to eye with you on something, the way you explain your position always gives me food for thought and makes me re-examine my own thinking.  You've never changed my mind on anything, but you have expanded my understanding of things on more than one occasion.  If our paths ever cross, the beer is on me.

[Dave Gray]

Thanks, man.  I try to be consistent and level-headed...don't always succeed, but I'll take a beer, regardless.