National Anthem (spinoff from a Dolphins Thread)

[Dave Gray]

As to not derail the Dolphins thread...


To CF Dolfan, I hear you, man.  I really do understand where you're coming from about what the flag or the anthem means to you. 

But to me, it means something different....almost the opposite, in fact.  It might surprise you, but I consider myself a very patriotic person.  I like the flag.  I come from a family that flies the flag, I had one displayed in my room on the wall for much of my life.  But I almost take offense that the flag is tied to war or soldiers.  While I respect the military and those that have fallen for just (and even unjust) causes, that flag belongs to me every bit as it does to them.  I also do not like blind nationalism, I don't like the hero-worship of the military, and I don't like the pledge of allegiance.  These things go against the very notion of what the flag is for, to me.

I love the flag for what it represents, but the flag (or what it represents) doesn't get my unconditional love; it has to continue to earn it.

I think that flag protest is among the most patriotic things you can do.  Dissent against your government is at the very core of what makes the flag great in the first place -- and willingness to stand up (or kneel, in this case) as a symbol that your government is not living up to what it stands for, is completely apt.

My point is this -- If I were to kneel (or burn the flag or turn my back to it or raise my fist up to it or whatever has been done through the years) it has absolutely zero in my mind to do with the military.  That's something that YOU are bringing to the table, but it's not what it represents to everyone else.

[MaineDolFan]

I would like to chime in a little.  Although my opinion, like everyone else's, is just that; subjective and an opinion.  Specifically pertaining to the military, and the flag and this comment:

Dave, I am not outraged or anything like that when people kneel.  I would prefer that they didn't, but personally I'm not outraged by it.  As for the flag not being a military symbol, I have to respectfully disagree.  Ask someone in the military what happens to them if when on base the national anthem is played or the flag is raised or lowered and they just keep on strolling along.  On base, when the national anthem is played or the flag is raised or lowered, personnel in uniform are to stand at attention and salute.  Service members out of uniform are to stand at attention, place their right hand over their heart or may also salute.  Civilians on base are to place their right hand, or a hat if they are wearing one, over their heart.  Service members performing physical training and wearing a PT uniform outdoors are to stop, stand at attention and render a salute.  Vehicles in motion are to pull over and stop their vehicle.  So to that extent, the American flag is very much a military symbol.  And any military member who does not do the above when the anthem is being played or the flag is being raised or lowered will get a new ass thoroughly ripped by the nearest officer or non-commissioned officer who sees it and they will most likely receive a punishment as well.  Even if the flag is nowhere in sight on base, when the anthem is being played, etc. the service members are to stand facing where the flag would be and do the above.  

I served in the US Army for 16 years.  Respect for the Flag is not the same as the flag being a symbol for the service.  Stopping for taps does not = "the flag is a military symbol."  It simply represents a portion of what we protect.  
In the Olympics, when an American won gold, the same happens.  Is the flag then a symbol for the Olympics?  Of course not.

The flag is symbolic of the nation, and everything the nation represents.  Under law, we are all to be equal, I think we all know this is not true.  Some are better than admitting the warts associated with this nation than others, admission of flaws does not negate an ability to love this nation, and understand we have a lot of work to do. I would not kneel during the anthem, nor protest the anthem.  I fully understand and support those who do, and will protect them while they do it.  I did not serve so everyone would think like me, I served so everyone could think like themselves.  I may not agree with what you have to say - but I will die to protect your right to say it.  I also always have my mind open that my way, and things I think, may not be "the" way.  Always learning, always questioning, and always willing to listen. That is the flag, for me.

The moment we even think about forcing anyone to do anything else we are no different than North Korea.

[CF DolFan]

As to not derail the Dolphins thread...


To CF Dolfan, I hear you, man.  I really do understand where you're coming from about what the flag or the anthem means to you. 

But to me, it means something different....almost the opposite, in fact.  It might surprise you, but I consider myself a very patriotic person. 

It used to surprise me but it doesn't any longer and it's because of people like you. I saw a meme once that said something along the lines of "You can't raise your kids like your parents raised you because that world no longer exists". I think there is a lot of truth to that. Each generation is different and I think it is difficult to see another's perspective without experiencing it a little. I just wish there was something going on in the world that wasn't political. It's driving people crazy.

[Dave Gray]

One more thing --

I like the anthem.  I choose to stand, I usually sing along, I have somewhat recently scored my own arrangement of it.

But that, for me, is a choice that I make for pride.  And the minute that I feel that it is expected of me to honor the anthem or the flag or whatever else, that symbol is no longer worthy of that praise.

It's why I'm not a fan of the pledge.  I don't pledge allegiance.  My country earns my allegiance by its actions, but they are by no means a guarantee.  Once this country doesn't represent what it's supposed to stand for, it will no longer receive my support.

[Pappy13]

And the minute that I feel that it is expected of me to honor the anthem or the flag or whatever else, that symbol is no longer worthy of that praise.

It's why I'm not a fan of the pledge.  I don't pledge allegiance.  My country earns my allegiance by its actions, but they are by no means a guarantee.  Once this country doesn't represent what it's supposed to stand for, it will no longer receive my support.

You don't feel like the US has earned your allegiance? I'm curious to know what your reasons for this are? You live in the best country in the world and in many cases, it's not close. You know how I know this? All you have to do is talk to some people that have lived in other countries around the world. Corruption. Abuse. Injustice. Oh there's some of that in the US too, but compared to most other countries, it's night and day.  Your lack of patriotism to the greatest country in the world is disappointing. I feel like this is mainly because you have taken the country that you live in for granted. You remind me of a much younger generation of kids, but for the most part once those kids mature and realize how they good they have it compared to the rest of the world, they start to see things a bit differently. I think you would change your tune if you lost some of the priviledges you have simply because you live in this great country. The US has it's share of problems, I won't deny that but don't for a minute think that other countries don't have it worse. Much worse in most cases.

The attitude that Dave is displaying I think is part of the problem with this whole American Flag and National Anthem protest. I don't think those that choose to protest by disrespecting the American Flag and the National Anthem realize that they are choosing the very symbol of what it is that provides them the right to protest in the first place. That's a very poor choice as a way of protest in my opinion. Don't get me wrong, I respect your decision to protest as you see fit, but realize that I too have the right to protest to the manner in which you protest. That's MY right. And if I would prefer you STAND and pay your respects to the US and what it represents while the National Anthem and the Flag of the United States is presented then so be it. You're not wrong for protesting, but I don't have to agree with the way in which you are protesting to agree with the protest. I respect your right to protest, I don't agree with using the presentation of the American flag and playing of the National Anthem to do it.

[Dave Gray]

You don't feel like the US has earned your allegiance?

I didn't say that. Also, I think you're mixing up what I do vs. what I'd be willing to do if my country didn't continue to hold my values.

I do have allegiance to the country, but my point was that my allegiance is not absolute.  American (or any country) is incapable of my unconditional love indefinitely.  My love, when it comes to loyalty of government, has conditions.  If we fall down the wrong path, I'm not going to support America simply because of what it once stood for.

I hate to bring this to Nazi-ism, because that's usually where stuff derails, but it really does make my point most succinctly.  I'm sure there are many Germans who were patriotic, good citizens -- yet didn't just fall in line when horrible things were being done by their country, just because they once loved Germany.  I certainly wouldn't fault them for not standing for the pledge during a Nazi regime.  (Not saying the US are Nazis...it's just a very clear example.)

Again, I think you're wrong that I'm not patriotic.  I feel that I'm very patriotic.  I love this country, which is why I'm so passionate in fighting for what I believe it stands for.  Strangely, I find that co-opting the symbols of America, while discounting what those symbols represent, is a betrayal of patriotism.  Generally, it seems those that cling to their flags and their symbols are less deserving of them, in many cases.

I feel like it's kinda like the debate that Christians always have about being a good Christian by living the life vs the one that's always spouting scripture but lives life in ways that are un-Christ-like.

[Dave Gray]

I really want to make a separate point to drive it home that I, personally, am patriotic.  I'm almost taken aback by the suggestion that I'm not.

But my way of showing it is probably different.  I love American History.  I'm rewatching John Adams right now, in fact.  But I regularly go back and watch shows about history and the evolution of the country.  I've scored the National Anthem.  I usually sing it.  I display the flag, historically (don't have a flagpole now, but I'd like one). 

My whole point that I don't want to be missed it, if America is an asshole, I won't continue to do those things just because it's America.

Also, I have not personally lived overseas, but my siblings have and I'm very familiar with and have spent time and have an understanding of cultures in Asia and Europe.  I'm not a stranger to other ways of life.

I do think that America is the greatest country on Earth, but it's a mixed bag.  Some countries do things better than us, some things worse, but I think that our diversity and intuition is inherently capable of making us the best.  But I don't take that for granted.

[Pappy13]

I didn't say that.

By saying that you won't pledge your allegiance to the US you kind of are in my opinion. The pledge of allegiance doesn't mean that you will ALWAYS be allegiant, it means right now you are. Obviously if the US stops to be what you think it should be then you can stop your allegiance to it, that's understood. That's why you don't say the pledge of allegiance once and forget it, you say it every day. It's your acknowledgement that currently your allegiant to the flag. By refusing to say it in my opinion your not really committing that you are currently allegiant. Not that you will ALWAYS be allegiant to the flag especially if what it means to be allegiant to the flag changes and you can no longer be allegiant for those reasons. At least that's how I understand it and that's how I view it. If you were to agree that you currently are allegiant to the flag then you should be willing to say the pledge of allegiance in my opinion. Are you willing to say the pledge of allegiance under those conditions? If not, then I don't think you really are regardless of what you say. Seems to me that you want to have your cake and eat it too. You can't have both. Either you are currently allegiant to the US or you are not. Which is it? You certainly have the right to stop that allegiance at any point you choose to. No where in the pledge of allegiance does it say it's a permanent pledge or that it somehow pertains to the future which in my opinion no one can really pledge.

[Dave Gray]

I don't know, man.  I just think that a pledge of allegiance is weird.  Especially asking kids to do it.  It's not that I never say it (I'm not really in a position as an adult to be asked to say it).  I just think the very concept of pledging allegiance is a weird brain-washing thing. 

I believe that I can hold an allegiance to something without repeating some rote words in a public setting.   Shit's weird to me.  I'm also the guy that will never, ever speak to someone like my wife or my kids publicly through Facebook to wish her a happy anniversary or congratulate them on their birthday.  I'm just not that kind of guy.

I don't think that makes me unpatriotic, but I'm not sure what else so say.

[Pappy13]

The pledge is not for you Dave, it's for the others who hear you say it. You are effectively telling them "I'm not a traitor, you can trust me and my allegiance to the US". If you don't say it, then how are we suppose to know? Now you could actually be a traitor and just be saying it and not really mean it and honestly that kind of sounds a little like what I'm hearing from you. You are saying it but you're not really sure you mean it. That's why I say it sounds a little unpatriotic to me. I don't really think you mean it that way, but maybe you're not quite as patriotic as you think you are? I think most people say the pledge of allegiance with pride. Sure doesn't sound like that for you.

[Pappy13]

I'm posting this in a seperate post to illustrate that is has nothing to do with Dave and the pledge of allegiance, rather it's my take on the world and the country that I live in.

As a technology person I have had the good fortune to make some very close relationships with people from other countries, namely India and Mexico. I have nothing against either of those countries, in fact I have tremendous respect for the people that come from those countries. I say that because I've sat and talked with them. I'm good friends with them. The things that go on in their countries. How they are treated. What they think of their own countries. All of these people are patriotic to their own countries, but they are also envious of THIS country. I know this first hand because they tell me so. Many of the people from those other countries would RATHER live in this country if they had the choice. Not that their home country is bad, but the US is better. Not in EVERY way, but in a lot of ways. I won't try to go into it because it's not a simple thing, it's only after living in this country for a long while and seeing how things are here and comparing to their own country do they realize this. I have one friend that is very fearful that he will one day not be able to live in this country because he is not a citizen. He has been trying to get his US citizenship for many years now because it takes around 12 years for people from India to get a US citzenship. If he does obtain it, I dare say that he will be proud to say the pledge of allegiance. It might be one of the best days of his life, for him and his family.

For my friends from Mexico that have lived here since Trump has become president they have marveled how it is that the US has gotten a president very much like the presidents that they have traditionally had in Mexico for years. Outwardly they pretend to care about the country when their actions speak the opposite. They mostly just want to line their pockets. Corruption is a way of life politically in Mexico. Mexico has tried for years to change that, the US on the other hand seems to have lost sight of the importance of doing what's right, not what's most beneficial for yourself.

Maybe I've just been lucky to see things from a different perspective, but I feel many of those that live in the US don't know how lucky they are. Why do you think that foreigners try so hard to get into our country anyway? Just because they want to get rich? Become millionaires or something? You can live very extravagant lifestyles in other countries without being rich, that's not it. They want to come here because it's about our ideals. It's about what we hold most sacred. The freedom of speech. The freedom of religion. The freedom to pursue happiness and most of all the idea that all men are created equal (even if this is a tough sell on some people).

[Phishfan]

Anyone else find grown men discussing the pledge a little weird? I haven't been in a position where it was spoken around me in 40 years probably. I always thought that it was just kids in elementary schools.

[Spider-Dan]

I believe most legislatures (and similar bodies like city councils) recite the pledge before starting official proceedings.

[Spider-Dan]

You live in the best country in the world and in many cases, it's not close.

Hypothetically speaking, what would have to be different in order for you to change this belief?

Are we the richest country in the world?  Yes.
Do we have the largest and most powerful military in the world?  Also yes.

By most other objective measures - e.g. life expectancy, general health, education, income mobility, democratic participation - we have allowed ourselves to decline and we are no longer the best in the world.  We just like to say "We're the best!" over and over, particularly when someone tries to improve the country in a way we disagree with.

[Dolphster]

Hypothetically speaking, what would have to be different in order for you to change this belief?

Are we the richest country in the world?  Yes.
Do we have the largest and most powerful military in the world?  Also yes.

By most other objective measures - e.g. life expectancy, general health, education, income mobility, democratic participation - we have allowed ourselves to decline and we are no longer the best in the world.  We just like to say "We're the best!" over and over, particularly when someone tries to improve the country in a way we disagree with.

Agreed.  I love this country and wouldn't want to live anywhere else.  But it definitely depends on what barometer you are choosing for measurement to determine whether it is the "best" country.  Most people in most countries think their country is "the best".  When I was in Iraq, most of the people there thought Iraq is the best country.  I was like, "Seriously?  This absolute shit hole?"    LOL