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Author Topic: Presidential Pardons  (Read 4177 times)
Dolphster
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« on: January 20, 2021, 08:34:47 am »

The whole concept of Presidential Pardons is some bullshit in my opinion. 
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MyGodWearsAHoodie
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« Reply #1 on: January 20, 2021, 08:41:57 am »

Don’t disagree.  They have a legitimate purpose, but are too easily abused.

Hopefully, we will see a constitutional amendment to either eliminate or limit that power.  At minimum exclude family members, crimes committed to benefit the president, acts by public officials, and acts that are against our democratic processes.

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Dolphster
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« Reply #2 on: January 20, 2021, 09:04:24 am »

Yeah, I probably should have added that they probably do have a legit purpose.  But like you said, they get abused really badly. 
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Dave Gray
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« Reply #3 on: January 20, 2021, 09:16:13 am »

There are some things that I'm just not gonna get caught up in the weeds with.

One of them is presidential pardons.  I think they are a good thing, in general.  It's nice to see someone that has served time and some leniency for cases especially where we've moved on with social norms.  Or where you think someone broke a law but their heart was in the right place or whatever.

I agree that they're abused and it's a way to take care of your own.  It's just the nature of it, I guess, so I'm not gonna lose my shit.

Of these Trump pardons, the Blackwater stuff is the worst, because I think there's a larger message there.

But the Steve Bannon-type stuff, I don't like it, but I understand it and I'm not gonna hold it against Trump.

Pardoning himself (or even pardoning those directly involved in things he's involved in) is no bueno, because there's conflict of interest stuff.  I'd like to see the laws more clearly defined.

In fact, I think some of the lessons we learned from the Trump administration is that a lot of these laws are based on decorum or tradition, but that havne't really been tested.  We need to recognize that stuff and make changes: you shouldn't be able to appoint someone to oversee the election, since you're in the election.  ...stuff like that.  It's just an opening for corruption.  I think that's a bi-partisan thing that we should iron out more clearly.  ...timelines for hearing Justices so you can't just not take it to the Senate for 4 years.  This stuff could happen under the law and the only reason it doesn't is because people haven't done it yet.
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Dave Gray
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« Reply #4 on: January 20, 2021, 10:29:30 am »

If I can derail this thread with a related idea, just like I'm not going to put effort into Presidential Pardons, I'm not going to get caught up in vaccine rollout, either, in terms of who gets the shots.

There are definitely arguments to be made for or against old people vs. medical professionals vs. essential workers vs. elites and politicians vs. people who have connections in the medical field vs. locals and visitors.  I get it.  But. I. Don't. Give. A. Fuck.

I just want the shot in the arm of as many people, as fast as possible.

Desantis just ordered that only Floridians can get the Florida shots.  Some are praising him for helping out locals.  Some are criticizing him for waiting until Trump is leaving to do something he should've done from the start.  Some claim he's just pandering for votes.  And I just don't care.  Get the shots out, in any way you deem fit and you won't get pushback from me.
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MyGodWearsAHoodie
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« Reply #5 on: January 20, 2021, 01:09:49 pm »

If I can derail this thread with a related idea, just like I'm not going to put effort into Presidential Pardons, I'm not going to get caught up in vaccine rollout, either, in terms of who gets the shots.

There are definitely arguments to be made for or against old people vs. medical professionals vs. essential workers vs. elites and politicians vs. people who have connections in the medical field vs. locals and visitors.  I get it.  But. I. Don't. Give. A. Fuck.

I just want the shot in the arm of as many people, as fast as possible.

Desantis just ordered that only Floridians can get the Florida shots.  Some are praising him for helping out locals.  Some are criticizing him for waiting until Trump is leaving to do something he should've done from the start.  Some claim he's just pandering for votes.  And I just don't care.  Get the shots out, in any way you deem fit and you won't get pushback from me.

So a 75 yo snowbird who has both owns a house in both Florida and NY but uses NY as their primary residence can’t get vaccinated until they travel back to NY?  That is just straight up evil.
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Fau Teixeira
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« Reply #6 on: January 20, 2021, 01:58:35 pm »

So a 75 yo snowbird who has both owns a house in both Florida and NY but uses NY as their primary residence can’t get vaccinated until they travel back to NY?  That is just straight up evil.

just desantis being desantis¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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Dave Gray
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« Reply #7 on: January 20, 2021, 02:16:48 pm »

So a 75 yo snowbird who has both owns a house in both Florida and NY but uses NY as their primary residence can’t get vaccinated until they travel back to NY?  That is just straight up evil.

I mean...I get that argument, but I also see how people might not want a bunch of snowbirds specifically coming here to get vaccinated when they don't pay into our tax system for distribution.  ...or people flooding from the Georgia border or whatever.

Like I said, I don't care....vaccinate whoever, in whatever order -- I'm not sure if it's for the best or not, but I'm not choosing to put my fight there.
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MyGodWearsAHoodie
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« Reply #8 on: January 20, 2021, 02:38:06 pm »

I mean...I get that argument, but I also see how people might not want a bunch of snowbirds specifically coming here to get vaccinated when they don't pay into our tax system for distribution.  ...or people flooding from the Georgia border or whatever.

Like I said, I don't care....vaccinate whoever, in whatever order -- I'm not sure if it's for the best or not, but I'm not choosing to put my fight there.

I agree people shouldn’t travel during a pandemic to get vaccinated.  So no giving out vaccines to people on a one week vacation to Disney World. 

But forcing someone who has been sheltering in place in their Miami condo since February 3 of last year forgoing seeing family or going out to travel back to their primary residence up north to get a vaccine is just wrong.  And yes there are snowbirds who skipped the northern summer migration because of covid.
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masterfins
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« Reply #9 on: January 20, 2021, 05:58:49 pm »

The problem with Pardons/Clemency is that there are always a few that are egregious, and they get the headlines.  Some have already served their full sentence, or have served a great deal of time in jail, so I don't have a big problem with those.  It's the ones that haven't served at all, or only a very short time, that I have a problem with.
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Phishfan
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« Reply #10 on: January 20, 2021, 07:51:04 pm »

My experience is that snowbirds change their residences in most cases for tax purposes.
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Sunstroke
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« Reply #11 on: January 21, 2021, 09:27:13 am »

The problem with Pardons/Clemency is that there are always a few that are egregious, and they get the headlines.  Some have already served their full sentence, or have served a great deal of time in jail, so I don't have a big problem with those.  It's the ones that haven't served at all, or only a very short time, that I have a problem with.

This...exactly.  If a specific case is reviewed and it is determined that they have good cause to be forgiven, then ok... But pardoning a criminal who really should be in jail because of their crimes...leave them there.

The whole "you're a friend, you support me, therefore, you are pardoned" bullshit...that should go.

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Dave Gray
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« Reply #12 on: January 21, 2021, 09:31:20 am »

In terms of which pardons are appropriate, I think it really comes down to motives, in many cases.  What you did was wrong, but either your heart was in the right place, or the social narrative has outlived your sentence.

Just two kinds of examples off the top of my head:
- Let's say that someone got a big sentence for some kind of injustice, like a labor or environmental issue. ...and they were involved in a riot that burned something down or whatever.  But 20 years later, we realize that though their methods were wrong, ultimately history proved them right.

Or:
- Let's say someone got a big sentence for growing and selling weed....and it was during an unreasonable, rigid sentencing period, so you gave someone a third strike and put them in jail for 40 years for what is now a legal, and seen as a relatively harmless act.


...that kind of stuff, mostly.
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Sunstroke
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« Reply #13 on: January 21, 2021, 09:38:39 am »


^^^ Any American in jail for simple possession of marijuana should be pardoned and released immediately...as long as that is their only charge.

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Dave Gray
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« Reply #14 on: January 21, 2021, 09:55:31 am »

^^^ Any American in jail for simple possession of marijuana should be pardoned and released immediately...as long as that is their only charge.



Obviously.  I was thinking more about dealing.  Neighborhood weed dealers got big time.  Mandatory sentencing didn't do any favors.
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