This is why we need less cops and more social workers

[Dolphster]

Hoodie, I appreciate you being open minded and engaging in a good conversation about this.  See comments below.

Dolphster I am glad you posted that. 

 There is two ways to fix this problem: One of these ways is to have non-police officers impose a solution.  The other is for police officers to fix it.  I am a strong supporter of the first, only because to date most police absolutely refuse to even acknowledge a problem. If 95% of the Rochester police force was to sign a statement demanding that these two police officers be fired and criminally prosecuted and stating they refuse to serve with such individuals and will quit if they are reinstated they will quit, then I would agree with the “few bad ones” claim.  But as it is very few officers have condemned their actions. 
I'd like to see a combination of both non-police officers imposing a solution but engaging with police officers to do it. Joint effort.  I get what you are saying about 95% of that department quitting if those douches aren't fired and prosecuted.  But honestly, how many people in any profession are willing to quit their jobs over something like that?  I think that the majority of cops condemn what those two did, but they aren't willing to quit their jobs and lose the income they live on over it.  And I don't think it makes them "bad cops" if they don't want to quit over it. Taking a stand and quitting your job over a principle sounds great and everything, but when you have a family to provide for and are suddenly unemployed by your own decision that makes it a different thing

I disagree with a few of your analogies, however. The local media seems to out of their way to complement local police for anything that is even slightly goes above and beyond.  I remember a few years ago a front page story about a police department had a toy drive that got about 200 toys buried  in the article on a later page they mentioned that 180 of those toys all came from a single drop off center at an elementary school.  I knew a kid at that elementary school and the back story.  The real driving force was a second grade teacher that wasn’t mentioned in the article not the chief of the police whose photo was on page one.  Also why should police get praise for doing there job?  I never read about a mailman,  garbage collector or town clerk.  They have the offensive line standard but unlike the police they aren’t screwing up daily.
Public relations moves like the toy drive you referenced are 90% BS just like they are in any other profession.  There may be some amount of kindness behind it, but it is mostly for good publicity.  But the small things that cops do that nobody ever hears about that I was referring to is more about things like taking the time to explain to victims what kind of assistance is available to them, cutting people breaks if it is obvious that they are down on their luck (a cop I used to work with in Miami bought groceries for a single mom who had shoplifted baby food), etc. Stopping at a park to shoot hoops with a group of 10 year olds for 5 minutes isn't noticeable at all, but they do it to try to get kids at a young age to not consider cops the enemy.  That is the kind of stuff I was referring to, and it happens all the time.

As for my thinking I can do a police officer job better than them or a sports person better than them.  I would note I don’t criticize Belichick’s play calling nor make fun of Drew Brees when he throws an interception.  Nor do I second guess Candem, NJ.  But I have criticized Dan Snyder and the Rochester, NY police.  One group actually competent.  And this is not limited to just sports and police.  I am certain I could have been a better president than Trump.  I know I could not have done as good of a job as Obama.
That is a fair statement, but what I was getting at is that those of us who don't know the nuts and bolts of any job can't be experts on it. It is fine to have an opinion, but wrong to assume that we have the absolute answer to something when we don't know enough about the topic

I am glad we agree on the not hiring of police officers fired for misbehavior.  Any chance you could convince your union to include a provision in the next contract banning the hiring of previously disciplined  officers from other departments? 
For me personally, I work for a federal law enforcement agency with a focus on national security. So we are very far removed from what goes on in municipal police departments. Thankfully because of the security clearances that we require, we have REALLY high hiring and oversight standards which makes bad apples very rare in our organization.  They exist, but they are very rare and there are definitely proactive procedures in place to get rid of them.  But when I was a young puppy working for the Miami PD, if I had the maturity and life experience that I have now, I definitely would have been an advocate changing the hiring standards, background checks, etc

I won’t believe that is “a few bad ones” until I believe there are many good ones.  And condemning these two won’t alone convince me a cop is a good cop.  But refusing to condemn them is absolute proof of being a horrible cop. 
I get that, but it goes back to what I said before about all you see on tv is the bad ones.  Helping a woman change her tire on the side of the road doesn't get on tv.  Getting back in your vehicle and crying because the victim of a crime that you just interviewed made your heart break for them doesn't get on tv.  But those things happen a lot.  I agree with you that condemning those two alone does not make a cop a good cop.  And I will say that not condemning is at least an indicator of being a horrible cop although I wouldn't call it proof.  The thing is though, how many cops have you heard say that they approve of what those two did?  Again, my organization is very different than a municipal police dept.  But talk around my office has shown that every single person I have talked to about it condemns it.  But I wouldn't say that failure to quit your job in protest means you aren't condemning those two.  It is very easy to tell someone else they should quit their job to protest something.  It is a hell of a lot harder when YOU are the one who finds yourself unemployed and unable to provide for your family.

[Dave Gray]

I rarely weigh in on law enforcement threads because I work in the field and I have come to realize that much like politics, everyone has pretty much made up their minds about how they feel about law enforcement and no amount of discussion is going to change anyone's mind.

It's funny that you say this, because I think that law enforcement is one huge gray area for me and I bounce all around in how to approach it.  I have lots of "all cops are bastards" friends and "law and order" friends and I often agree with neither.

[Pappy13]

In this exact instance, you have people like Hoodie or myself calling for these cops to be fired after the fact, while Pappy13 is preaching tolerance and a do-over.

To be fair Hoodie is calling for them to be jailed, not just fired. And I didn't say nothing should happen to them, I said a suspension would be appropriate, but not fired. So yes I'm more lenient then you or Hoodie, but not terribly and only if this is a first offense type of thing for the officers. If they've already been suspended or reprimanded for something like this then absolutely not just fire them but prevent them from ever being cops again.

[pondwater]

I won’t believe that is “a few bad ones” until I believe there are many good ones.  And condemning these two won’t alone convince me a cop is a good cop.  But refusing to condemn them is absolute proof of being a horrible cop. 

Not condemning someone or something proves nothing. You want to label them as horrible people because they aren't doing what YOU want them to do. If they weren't involved in the situation then it's not their job to condone or condemn anyone unless they want to. That's what the judicial system is for. Minding your own business doesn't make you horrible.

Another thing you might be overlooking is training. There have been several instances in the past where there was social outcry over an incident and later to find out that the officers involved actually followed SOP and/or their training. You can't fire and jail people for doing what you trained them to do. Most of the time there are too many variables and unknowns involved for people to just jump to conclusions. I'm pretty sure that the rest of the Rochester police force understands these things better than you and can't make their own decisions.  

 

[Sunstroke]

Minding your own business doesn't make you horrible.

Actually, ignoring a co-worker who maced an innocent child does kinda make you pretty horrible. Perhaps you should see someone about your long-overdue moral compass recalibration...

[Dolphster]

Actually, ignoring a co-worker who maced an innocent child does kinda make you pretty horrible.

I'm going to give Pondwater the benefit of the doubt that maybe he didn't mean it the way that came across.  But I agree with you, Stroke.  There is the good kind of minding your own business and then there is looking the other way when something bad is happening and that is not the good kind of minding your own business. 

[Dolphster]

It's funny that you say this, because I think that law enforcement is one huge gray area for me and I bounce all around in how to approach it.  I have lots of "all cops are bastards" friends and "law and order" friends and I often agree with neither.

Dave, I think all of us have at least some amount of inherent bias in us because we are all products of our life experiences.  When I was a teenager, the big thing was to "cruise" the Ft. Lauderdale Beach strip along AIA.  Yeah, I am so old that this was the thing back then.  Like most kids, I played my car stereo too loud.  One time I of course got pulled over for it being too loud.  The cop was super cool about it.  He essentially said that he likes loud music too but there is an ordinance against it in your car and explained to my young dumb azz about how if your stereo is so loud you might not hear emergency vehicles or other car's honking or something and that loud stereos led to distracted driving and accidents, etc etc.  He didn't give me a ticket (thankful because my parents would have killed me) and tried to make the traffic stop about educating me and treating me with respect and listening to me.  I thought that was really cool and maybe it planted some seed that led to my future career.  Maybe not, I dunno.  But I think that if he had been a jerk about it, hassled me, tried to find everything he possible could to write me a citation for, etc. then maybe I would have thought "Cops are jerks" and that would have planted to seed for me to never trust or like cops.  All of this is just speculation of course, but I think there might be some validity to it.  Point being, I think that our feelings about cops and just about everything else in life is pretty much a direct result of our own personal interactions (especially if they were at a young age). 

[pondwater]

I'm going to give Pondwater the benefit of the doubt that maybe he didn't mean it the way that came across.  But I agree with you, Stroke.  There is the good kind of minding your own business and then there is looking the other way when something bad is happening and that is not the good kind of minding your own business. 

It's not looking the other way when everyone already knows about it. Also, it's not like all of the rest of the officers on the force were there to intervene in the situation. If other officers were involved or knew about the situation and tried to hide it. Then yes, they are complicit and should be held accountable.

If my coworkers are stealing shit from my company, then yes I'll report it. But if the company and everyone else already knows about it, then there's no point for me to get involved just to force my opinions down people's throats to force an outcome. There's a process in place to deal with situations like this. There also may be facts or circumstances that haven't been disclosed that may come into play.

[Dolphster]

It's not looking the other way when everyone already knows about it. Also, it's not like all of the rest of the officers on the force were there to intervene in the situation. If other officers were involved or knew about the situation and tried to hide it. Then yes, they are complicit and should be held accountable.

If my coworkers are stealing shit from my company, then yes I'll report it. But if the company and everyone else already knows about it, then there's no point for me to get involved just to force my opinions down people's throats to force an outcome. There's a process in place to deal with situations like this. There also may be facts or circumstances that haven't been disclosed that may come into play.

Fair enough, thanks for clarifying.  I just didn't want to make assumptions on what you were trying to say when Sunstroke responded to you. 

[Spider-Dan]

It's not looking the other way when everyone already knows about it. Also, it's not like all of the rest of the officers on the force were there to intervene in the situation. If other officers were involved or knew about the situation and tried to hide it. Then yes, they are complicit and should be held accountable.

It's more than that.

Suffice it to say that every officer in that force is aware of that act of police brutality today.  What will they do about it?

Will they lobby for those offending officers to be fired or arrested?  No.
Will they support efforts to strengthen accountability, so that future instances of police brutality will be dealt with harshly? No.

Instead, what will happen is what always happens: the police union fights against civilian leadership, in an effort to protect the bad apples and make sure they suffer the fewest consequences possible.

You don't see teachers' unions aggressively attacking City Hall in defense of teachers accused of child abuse.  You don't see nurses' unions publicly bashing hospital management on behalf of nurses accused of molesting patients.  This sick behavior only happens with police unions.

You cannot be a "good apple" if you defend and support a system that insulates the bad apples from the consequences of their misdeeds.  Police officers who support union leadership that work the system to protect egregious police abuse of power... they are themselves complicit in the abuse.

I'm not talking about a union defending a member accused of using the department expense account on personal items, or taking sick days when they weren't actually sick.  I'm talking about physical violence perpetrated under the authority of the state.  It's a gross and disgusting abuse of power, and police unions have absolutely no shame in defending even the worst perpetrators.

[Dolphster]

It's more than that.

Suffice it to say that every officer in that force is aware of that act of police brutality today.  What will they do about it?

Will they lobby for those offending officers to be fired or arrested?  No.
Will they support efforts to strengthen accountability, so that future instances of police brutality will be dealt with harshly? No.

Instead, what will happen is what always happens: the police union fights against civilian leadership, in an effort to protect the bad apples and make sure they suffer the fewest consequences possible.

You don't see teachers' unions aggressively attacking City Hall in defense of teachers accused of child abuse.  You don't see nurses' unions publicly bashing hospital management on behalf of nurses accused of molesting patients.  This sick behavior only happens with police unions.

You cannot be a "good apple" if you defend and support a system that insulates the bad apples from the consequences of their misdeeds.  Police officers who support union leadership that work the system to protect egregious police abuse of power... they are themselves complicit in the abuse.

I'm not talking about a union defending a member accused of using the department expense account on personal items, or taking sick days when they weren't actually sick.  I'm talking about physical violence perpetrated under the authority of the state.  It's a gross and disgusting abuse of power, and police unions have absolutely no shame in defending even the worst perpetrators.

I support you 100% with that.  Police unions protect the bad apples and make it very difficult to fire people who should be fired.  I'm not saying that they don't do any good at all.  But the bad they do way outweighs the good they do.  I have seen it personally from the inside.  Even at the federal level.  Last year a coworker verbally threatened to shoot me and he did it in front of witnesses.  The agency immediately suspended him pending investigation and the agency took steps to have him fired.  The union came in and after 6 months, they reinstated him.  His "punishment" for threatening to kill me essentially became 6 months of fully paid administrative leave.  Instead of getting fired, he got a 6 month paid vacation. 

[Dave Gray]

I think that our feelings about cops and just about everything else in life is pretty much a direct result of our own personal interactions (especially if they were at a young age). 

For sure, when you're in need, there's nothing like having a police officer to help you.  When I've dealt with break-ins and stuff, cops really help when you feel vulnerable.

I've had a few not so good incidents as well.  But I think that personally, my personal interactions with the police have been largely positive, aside from one big incident where the cops had the wrong guy and a few minor gripes with behavior.

I've gotten a ticket before where in addition to the ticket, the guy was just a dick about it like he was personally scolding or mocking me.  That made me lose faith in the system a little bit and made me feel kinda belitted because I had no power to defend myself....normally, when a guy is chippy with you, you stand your ground and get chippy back -- but you can't really do that with police...or at least you shouldn't.

[Dolphster]

I've gotten a ticket before where in addition to the ticket, the guy was just a dick about it like he was personally scolding or mocking me.  That made me lose faith in the system a little bit and made me feel kinda belitted because I had no power to defend myself....normally, when a guy is chippy with you, you stand your ground and get chippy back -- but you can't really do that with police...or at least you shouldn't.

That sucks and I hate that crap like that happens.  What should happen during a routine traffic stop where there is no reason for the cop to assume that the person he pulled over is a "bad actor", the cop should be professional and courteous.  And as long as the person you pulled over is responding in a like manner, you keep it that way.  Now if the person you pulled over starts with an attitude, you need to escalate your approach (not physically, but verbally and with non verbal messaging).  But if you are dealing with someone you show the citizen respect until they give you a reason not to.   And I totally believe your story because 7 or 8 years ago I was pulled over for speeding in my personal car, I was off duty, and nothing on or in my vehicle gives any indication that I am law enforcement.  The cop immediately starts in with a terrible attitude and being a smartass.  I let him go on for about a full minute and a half and then I identify myself as a federal agent.  He immediately turned into my best buddy.  There was absolutely no reason for him to initiate contact with me in the manner that he did.  I still maintain that this is more of the exception than the rule, but it shouldn't happen at all. 

[CF DolFan]

I was working for the County when I came upon a County speed trap on a rural empty road and was motioned to pull over. The deputy who walked over realized I was county as he walked up to the truck so he knew he wasn't going to write me a speeding ticket. What this very young deputy did do was berate me for what seemed like 5 minutes about what would my boss think and how could I speed in a work vehicle, how dangerous it was etc. He was as lecturing and condescending of an officer as I have ever seen. I swear it took everything in me to not say "just write me a f'ing ticket and shut up" but I didn't. It's funny because I came away thinking he was an a-hole but it never affected the way I see police.  As well I've had other negative experiences but I judge the person and not position.

[pondwater]

It's more than that.

Suffice it to say that every officer in that force is aware of that act of police brutality today.  What will they do about it?

Will they lobby for those offending officers to be fired or arrested?  No.
Will they support efforts to strengthen accountability, so that future instances of police brutality will be dealt with harshly? No.

Instead, what will happen is what always happens: the police union fights against civilian leadership, in an effort to protect the bad apples and make sure they suffer the fewest consequences possible.

You don't see teachers' unions aggressively attacking City Hall in defense of teachers accused of child abuse.  You don't see nurses' unions publicly bashing hospital management on behalf of nurses accused of molesting patients.  This sick behavior only happens with police unions.

You cannot be a "good apple" if you defend and support a system that insulates the bad apples from the consequences of their misdeeds.  Police officers who support union leadership that work the system to protect egregious police abuse of power... they are themselves complicit in the abuse.

I'm not talking about a union defending a member accused of using the department expense account on personal items, or taking sick days when they weren't actually sick.  I'm talking about physical violence perpetrated under the authority of the state.  It's a gross and disgusting abuse of power, and police unions have absolutely no shame in defending even the worst perpetrators.

Not condemning something doesn't mean you support it. In fact it doesn't mean anything. If the rest of the force wasn't actively involved or didn't try to cover it up, then it's really not up to them to say anything unless they want to. You have an agenda and the people opposite of you have an agenda. The problem is that you're trying to pressure and intimidate people do what you want them to do through ridicule and mockery. Trying to bully people into your moral belief system is far from a good thing