It pays not to work in Biden's America

[Spider-Dan]

That kind of analysis eventually requires you to start categorizing a state by land area instead of people.  A state might look "red" on a map, but dirt doesn't get a vote; if the majority of voters are blue then the state is blue, even if those voters happen to live near each other.

[pondwater]

If you guys are going to start philosophizing about tax rates, maybe you should learn how taxes work first.  It doesn't sound like either of you understand what marginal tax rates are.
Every single part of this sentence is wrong.

1) Denmark's maximum "federal" income tax rate is 22.99%, but...
2) Someone making the equivalent of $20/hr (for a 37 hour Danish work week, that's $38,780/year in USD, or 237,014/year in DKK) is not being taxed at that top marginal rate; they would be taxed at an effective "federal" marginal tax rate of 11.2%
3) Denmark also has an additional municipal tax rate that ranges between 22.5% to 27.8%, but that's not "federal" (or even "national") tax rate; it is analogous to state & local taxes in the US (and has many available deductions)
4) The US federal income tax rate for someone making $20/hr is not anywhere near "33%"; it's less than 12% (11.87%, to be exact)

And as far as all that "free healthcare" stuff?  They don't pay a separate tax for Medicare while we do (1.45% payroll tax), and while they pay a flat yearly contribution for their Social Security (equivalent to ~$185/year), we pay a 6.2% payroll tax (for a person making $20/hr, that works out to ~$2580/year).

So let's try a more accurate comparison.  I'll even use the maximum municipal tax rate for the Danish employee with no deductions.
(all numbers are in USD for simplicity)

Danish McDonald's worker earning $20/hour:
37 hour Danish work week x 52 weeks = 1,924 hours
1,924 x $20 = $38,480 gross income
$38,480 x 11.2% national marginal income tax rate = $4,310 in national income tax
$38,480 x 27.8% municipal income tax rate = $10,697 in municipal income tax
$38,410 - $4,310 national tax - $10,697 municipal tax - $185 Social Security contribution = $23,288 take home pay
$23,288 / 1,924 hours = $12.10 net pay per hour

Do I even need to do the American side of this equation at this point?  Even if an American McDonald's worker had ZERO TAX DOLLARS taken out of their paycheck, they would need to be making at least $12.10/hr to compare to their Danish counterpart... who also gets free universal healthcare and 5 weeks paid vacation each year.

Please stop with this extremely dumb tax argument.

First of all, minimum wage in Denmark - None, it's negotiated between unions and employer associations; the average minimum wage for all private and public sector collective bargaining agreements was approximately DKK 110 (nominally $16) per hour, exclusive of pension benefits.

Second, I don't see anywhere in the world where the minimum wage is over $14. The US is the 12th highest out of around 200 countries in the world. Not to mention that the states have the option to raise the minimum wage to their liking. According to the link, there are 29 states that have raised their minimum wages. That's what's good about the United States, it's a free country and you can move as you please.

Minimum Wage By Country 2021

The total tax wedge is higher than you're portraying here. Actually, the average monthly disposable salary looks to be around equal at approx. $3200/mo. However, the cost of living of most things is much much higher. According to the link, basic utilities cost 49% more, clothing 77% more, real estate 14% more, rent 19% more, and a new car costs over twice as much.

Cost of living Stats: Denmark vs US

And Third, your numbers are misleading and you're only taking into account the low end of the tax bracket. If you click and sort by tax rate, Denmark has an effective total top tax rate of 60% that kicks in at low $54.9

So what about higher earners? You want me to pay 60% taxes? Fuck that shit, I pay enough.

You people want to spend corporations money through higher wages and taxes.
You people want to spend my money through higher cost of living and taxes.
You people want to spend the governments money through subsidy hand outs and social programs.

Why don't you do this. Worry about your money and spending.

As I said, if people want to relocate to a different state for higher paying wages, it's a free country. Better yet, since it's such a liberal utopian paradise, you guys can move to Denmark. Hey, Spider you need me to help you pack.

[masterfins]

And Third, your numbers are misleading and you're only taking into account the low end of the tax bracket.

Of course they are, it's Spider, he's the KING of cherry picking stats/comments/etc.  Practically every post he makes takes a minuscule item and blows it up like it's the only thing. lol  Occasionally he makes some good points and I agree with him, but when the facts are against him he ignores them and brings up some tangental item on the extreme end of the spectrum and makes it sound like that's the real truth.

[Spider-Dan]

First of all, minimum wage in Denmark - None, it's negotiated between unions and employer associations; the average minimum wage for all private and public sector collective bargaining agreements was approximately DKK 110 (nominally $16) per hour, exclusive of pension benefits.

If your point is that we should replace minimum wage laws with nationwide unions (like Denmark has), you have my support.

Second, I don't see anywhere in the world where the minimum wage is over $14. The US is the 12th highest out of around 200 countries in the world. Not to mention that the states have the option to raise the minimum wage to their liking. According to the link, there are 29 states that have raised their minimum wages. That's what's good about the United States, it's a free country and you can move as you please.

This has nothing to do with Denmark's income tax rate vs. the US.  Furthermore, the fact that the richest country in the world has only the 12th-highest minimum wage says more than I need to.  Why is is the UK's minimum wage higher than the US?  Canada?  Germany?  

The total tax wedge is higher than you're portraying here. Actually, the average monthly disposable salary looks to be around equal at approx. $3200/mo. However, the cost of living of most things is much much higher. According to the link, basic utilities cost 49% more, clothing 77% more, real estate 14% more, rent 19% more, and a new car costs over twice as much.

Your reference relies on data from Numbeo.com, a website that uses self-reported internet surveys with "over 100 contributions."  I leave it to the reader to judge the validity of such surveys.

And Third, your numbers are misleading and you're only taking into account the low end of the tax bracket. If you click and sort by tax rate, Denmark has an effective total top tax rate of 60% that kicks in at low $54.9

Like I just said, you don't know how marginal tax rates work.

First things first: as I just showed, $20/hr works out to a yearly salary of $38,480, which is less than $54,900, making your citation worthless.  Second, even if you made $55,000 even, your tax rate is not 60% of $55,000, because that's not how marginal tax rates work!

I'll explain this using US federal income tax rates from 1992 for simplicity:

If your income was $21,450 or less, your federal income tax rate was 15%.
If your income was between $21,451 and $51,900, your federal income tax rate was 28%.
If your income was over $51,900, your federal income tax rate was 31%.

This DOES NOT mean that if you had earned $51,800 through 12/30/92, and you earned $150 on the last day of the year (putting your yearly income at $51,950), you owe 31% tax on your entire income.  The way that marginal income tax is calculated is that you owe 15% on all income up to $21,450, and then 28% tax on all income between $21,451-$51,900, and then 31% tax on all income over $51,900.

So if you made $51,950 in 1992, your tax breakdown would be:

15% of $21,450 = $3217.50
28% of $30,450 (your income between $21,450 and $51,900) = $8526
31% of $50 (your income above $51,900) = $15.50
Total tax bill = $11,759

Notice that even though you made enough money to be placed in the 31% tax bracket, your ACTUAL tax rate for the year is $11,759 / $51,950 = 22.6%.  That's LESS than the middle tax bracket that you made too much money to qualify for!  Weird, huh?

Relatedly, this is why conservative horror stories about "I didn't want to make too much money because I would get taxed in a higher bracket" are always BS nonsense.  They are urban legends from people who don't understand how marginal tax rates work.

As I said, if people want to relocate to a different state for higher paying wages, it's a free country. Better yet, since it's such a liberal utopian paradise, you guys can move to Denmark. Hey, Spider you need me to help you pack.

This thread was created solely for conservatives to complain about "Biden's America."  So I humbly suggest you take your own advice and move to... Singapore?  Taiwan?  I honestly can't even think of a place that actually exists that meets the ridiculous standard conservatives insist on.  Certainly not America!

[dolphins4life]

If your point is that we should replace minimum wage laws with nationwide unions (like Denmark has), you have my support.
This has nothing to do with Denmark's income tax rate vs. the US.  Furthermore, the fact that the richest country in the world has only the 12th-highest minimum wage says more than I need to.  Why is is the UK's minimum wage higher than the US?  Canada?  Germany?  
Your reference relies on data from Numbeo.com, a website that uses self-reported internet surveys with "over 100 contributions."  I leave it to the reader to judge the validity of such surveys.
Like I just said, you don't know how marginal tax rates work.

First things first: as I just showed, $20/hr works out to a yearly salary of $38,480, which is less than $54,900, making your citation worthless.  Second, even if you made $55,000 even, your tax rate is not 60% of $55,000, because that's not how marginal tax rates work!

I'll explain this using US federal income tax rates from 1992 for simplicity:

If your income was $21,450 or less, your federal income tax rate was 15%.
If your income was between $21,451 and $51,900, your federal income tax rate was 28%.
If your income was over $51,900, your federal income tax rate was 31%.

This DOES NOT mean that if you had earned $51,800 through 12/30/92, and you earned $150 on the last day of the year (putting your yearly income at $51,950), you owe 31% tax on your entire income.  The way that marginal income tax is calculated is that you owe 15% on all income up to $21,450, and then 28% tax on all income between $21,451-$51,900, and then 31% tax on all income over $51,900.

So if you made $51,950 in 1992, your tax breakdown would be:

15% of $21,450 = $3217.50
28% of $30,450 (your income between $21,450 and $51,900) = $8526
31% of $50 (your income above $51,900) = $15.50
Total tax bill = $11,759

Notice that even though you made enough money to be placed in the 31% tax bracket, your ACTUAL tax rate for the year is $11,759 / $51,950 = 22.6%.  That's LESS than the middle tax bracket that you made too much money to qualify for!  Weird, huh?

Relatedly, this is why conservative horror stories about "I didn't want to make too much money because I would get taxed in a higher bracket" are always BS nonsense.  They are urban legends from people who don't understand how marginal tax rates work.
This thread was created solely for conservatives to complain about "Biden's America."  So I humbly suggest you take your own advice and move to... Singapore?  Taiwan?  I honestly can't even think of a place that actually exists that meets the ridiculous standard conservatives insist on.  Certainly not America!

  We have the highest debt of any country.  How can we be the richest country?

[ArtieChokePhin]

  We have the highest debt of any country.  How can we be the richest country?

It's really simple.  Just print more money.   History has shown what that does, but the leftists don't seem to care.  Those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

[Dave Gray]

Florida is a desirable place to live for many reasons but lower taxes and the fact our state was open when others weren't are a huge driving point. Both of which are republican ideals.

I think that "state being open" is exactly 0% of the influx of move.

Taxes, for sure.

I love no State income tax.  I don't really think it's fair to call that a Republican ideal.  Right now, I don't think they have a platform of lower taxes (or any platform that isn't culture-based).  But even if they did, Florida's lack of State income tax has to do with how we collect money.  We still get taxes, just from other areas.  ...hotel bed taxes and all that and sales taxes.  We tax industries instead of people.

[pondwater]

Of course they are, it's Spider, he's the KING of cherry picking stats/comments/etc.  Practically every post he makes takes a minuscule item and blows it up like it's the only thing. lol  Occasionally he makes some good points and I agree with him, but when the facts are against him he ignores them and brings up some tangental item on the extreme end of the spectrum and makes it sound like that's the real truth.

Hell, Spider wants to argue and debate someone and then when he's losing he complains about their "proper use of terminology" and literal definitions of words in the dictionary. How the fuck can you not laugh at people who can't or won't use proper terminology or the literal definition of words in the dictionary while trying to push their hardcore liberal agendas. It's kind of sad actually.

[pondwater]

If your point is that we should replace minimum wage laws with nationwide unions (like Denmark has), you have my support.
This has nothing to do with Denmark's income tax rate vs. the US.  Furthermore, the fact that the richest country in the world has only the 12th-highest minimum wage says more than I need to.  Why is is the UK's minimum wage higher than the US?  Canada?  Germany?  
Your reference relies on data from Numbeo.com, a website that uses self-reported internet surveys with "over 100 contributions."  I leave it to the reader to judge the validity of such surveys.
Like I just said, you don't know how marginal tax rates work.

First things first: as I just showed, $20/hr works out to a yearly salary of $38,480, which is less than $54,900, making your citation worthless.  Second, even if you made $55,000 even, your tax rate is not 60% of $55,000, because that's not how marginal tax rates work!

I'll explain this using US federal income tax rates from 1992 for simplicity:

If your income was $21,450 or less, your federal income tax rate was 15%.
If your income was between $21,451 and $51,900, your federal income tax rate was 28%.
If your income was over $51,900, your federal income tax rate was 31%.

This DOES NOT mean that if you had earned $51,800 through 12/30/92, and you earned $150 on the last day of the year (putting your yearly income at $51,950), you owe 31% tax on your entire income.  The way that marginal income tax is calculated is that you owe 15% on all income up to $21,450, and then 28% tax on all income between $21,451-$51,900, and then 31% tax on all income over $51,900.

So if you made $51,950 in 1992, your tax breakdown would be:

15% of $21,450 = $3217.50
28% of $30,450 (your income between $21,450 and $51,900) = $8526
31% of $50 (your income above $51,900) = $15.50
Total tax bill = $11,759

Notice that even though you made enough money to be placed in the 31% tax bracket, your ACTUAL tax rate for the year is $11,759 / $51,950 = 22.6%.  That's LESS than the middle tax bracket that you made too much money to qualify for!  Weird, huh?

Relatedly, this is why conservative horror stories about "I didn't want to make too much money because I would get taxed in a higher bracket" are always BS nonsense.  They are urban legends from people who don't understand how marginal tax rates work.
This thread was created solely for conservatives to complain about "Biden's America."  So I humbly suggest you take your own advice and move to... Singapore?  Taiwan?  I honestly can't even think of a place that actually exists that meets the ridiculous standard conservatives insist on.  Certainly not America!

None of that nonsense you wasted your time typing means anything. You're just cherry picking, spinning, and deflecting.

The fact is that Denmark has one of the highest income tax for single people in the world at 4th highest on the list. With the US coming in at 24th place.

Another fact is that Denmark has one of the highest income tax for married people in the world at 3rd highest on the list. With the US coming in at 25th place.

And finally, Denmark is one of the most expensive places to live in the world at 5th highest on the list, as noted HERE and HERE. With the US coming in at around the 20th spot.

You can't change facts Spider. Denmark has some of the highest taxes and cost of living on the entire planet. They are top five in all of three categories.

[CF DolFan]

I think that "state being open" is exactly 0% of the influx of move.

Taxes, for sure.

I love no State income tax.  I don't really think it's fair to call that a Republican ideal.  Right now, I don't think they have a platform of lower taxes (or any platform that isn't culture-based).  But even if they did, Florida's lack of State income tax has to do with how we collect money.  We still get taxes, just from other areas.  ...hotel bed taxes and all that and sales taxes.  We tax industries instead of people.

I couldn’t disagree more. If you don’t think silly liberal things like keeping businesses closed, banning straws, or even making large soft drinks illegal and raising taxes on everything you possibly can is the cause then you aren’t looking. We don’t have higher taxes because we don’t tax silly things and give it away to illegals and others.  Hell ... even Disney is looking to move their corporate offices to Orlando because of the closed for business rules they have endured. Don’t forget they even dropped off the Covid council in California over their frustrations with the overbearing lock downs.

[Spider-Dan]

The fact is that Denmark has one of the highest income tax for single people in the world at 4th highest on the list. With the US coming in at 24th place.

Another fact is that Denmark has one of the highest income tax for married people in the world at 3rd highest on the list. With the US coming in at 25th place.

You're talking about generalized tax rates; I'm taking about the exact amount of tax a person specifically making $20/hour would pay.  You claimed it would not be an increase in take home pay over what they would be taking home in the US, but that's clearly false.

Let's not forget why we're taking about Denmark in the first place: you guys insist that fast food work is inherently undeserving of a decent wage, but other countries manage to do it.  When you offer people a decent wage, people will take (and keep!) the jobs... which is the point of this thread.

[masterfins]

I'll explain this using US federal income tax rates from 1992 for simplicity:

If your income was $21,450 or less, your federal income tax rate was 15%.
If your income was between $21,451 and $51,900, your federal income tax rate was 28%.
If your income was over $51,900, your federal income tax rate was 31%.

This DOES NOT mean that if you had earned $51,800 through 12/30/92, and you earned $150 on the last day of the year (putting your yearly income at $51,950), you owe 31% tax on your entire income.  The way that marginal income tax is calculated is that you owe 15% on all income up to $21,450, and then 28% tax on all income between $21,451-$51,900, and then 31% tax on all income over $51,900.

So if you made $51,950 in 1992, your tax breakdown would be:

15% of $21,450 = $3217.50
28% of $30,450 (your income between $21,450 and $51,900) = $8526
31% of $50 (your income above $51,900) = $15.50
Total tax bill = $11,759

Notice that even though you made enough money to be placed in the 31% tax bracket, your ACTUAL tax rate for the year is $11,759 / $51,950 = 22.6%.  That's LESS than the middle tax bracket that you made too much money to qualify for!  Weird, huh?

Relatedly, this is why conservative horror stories about "I didn't want to make too much money because I would get taxed in a higher bracket" are always BS nonsense.  They are urban legends from people who don't understand how marginal tax rates work.

Spider, good explanation about how the effective tax rate is calculated.  I don't know why you would use rates from 1992, but I would also add the following: The tax calculation for 1992, in your example, would have been after deducting Personal exemptions (which were eliminated by Trump) and after deducting the Standard Deduction (which Trump basically doubled) or taking Itemized Deductions (which under Trump most people can't use anymore because of the doubled standard deduction and the $10K cap on the deductibility of taxes as an itemized deduction).  Therefore, the amount actually earned by the person in 1992 was probably about $8,000 higher than the $51,950.

Under the 2020 tax rates the same person with taxable income of $51,950, would only pay $7,219 in Federal income taxes, quite a savings for a middle income wage earner, versus the $11,759 they paid in 1992.

Using your 1992 example and regarding the part of your comment I put in bold, I would just add that once you reach the 31% tax bracket, and perhaps add in another 6% of State Income Taxes (depending on where you live), all the taxable income over that $51,900 figure would be taxed at 36% for income taxes.  So people that actually understand marginal tax rates may say "hey I'm not going to kill myself putting in overtime if the government is going to take 43.65 % of it (factoring in SS & Medicare taxes of 7.65%).  And if your a self-employed individual that is required to pay the employer matching SS & Medicare taxes of another 7.65%, that equates to paying 51.3% in taxes on your income over $51,900.00.

[pondwater]

You're talking about generalized tax rates; I'm taking about the exact amount of tax a person specifically making $20/hour would pay.  You claimed it would not be an increase in take home pay over what they would be taking home in the US, but that's clearly false.

Let's not forget why we're taking about Denmark in the first place: you guys insist that fast food work is inherently undeserving of a decent wage, but other countries manage to do it.  When you offer people a decent wage, people will take (and keep!) the jobs... which is the point of this thread.

Ok, if you say so. But I think we all know the truth, some you people just aren't adult enough to admit it. It's like dealing with children around here, LMFAO....

[Spider-Dan]

I used the rates from 1992 because it was easy to show the calculation for an income that hit the top bracket.  1992 was the last time we only had 3 brackets.

So people that actually understand marginal tax rates may say "hey I'm not going to kill myself putting in overtime if the government is going to take 43.65 % of it (factoring in SS & Medicare taxes of 7.65%).

That's a different problem that people also don't understand: no matter how much of your overtime your employer withholds, if that OT does not actually push your total yearly income into [the tax bracket you're citing], you're going to get that money back at tax time anyway.

There is no functional tax difference between extremely consistent OT and a raise.  So unless you would also think "I don't want this raise because the government is going to get too much of it," it does not make sense to turn down extra income based on income tax liability.

[CF DolFan]

Unemployment is still high even though most of the country is actively looking for workers. Biden is cancelling the $300 in September but still doesn't admit the lower end of the country is perfectly content to suck of the teat of the rest of us. I'd also argue that those same people have no desire to improve their status in life.  Thank God for Republican governors.

Gotta love the current status of our country

- give out free money and people continue to choose not to work
- defund the police and crime skyrockets
- destroy the idea of family and God while we watch as our youth destroy our society
- masculinity is toxic
- we treat our enemies like they are the step child we are trying to win over and will even cover up their crimes against us to pretend we are all kosher

It seems like common sense to me to know these things are inherently wrong but apparently I'm just a freaking genius.

Biden insists the US economy is the fastest growing in the world and says $300-a-week unemployment will end in
September after jobs report fell short of expectations AGAIN

The jobs report released Friday showed unemployment dropped to 5.8%
President Joe Biden said it represented 'historic progress'  
But the rise in jobs missed again after a disappointing growth in April
Republican governors in 24 states have now stopped Biden's $300 payments  

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9652227/US-jobs-grow-slower-expected-559-000-added-compared-expected-670-000.html