Nina Turner and the anti-Democrat left

[Spider-Dan]

Let me just add something on the subject of a smarter version of Trump capturing socialist voters with populist rhetoric:

It's meaningless to agree on the problems in society.  The only change of value comes from agreeing on solutions.  There's a political cartoon that captures this perfectly:



So when we talk about things like the anti-corporate populist right, we need to be clear that the populist right is "anti-corporate" in that they think Big Tech should not be allowed to kick white supremacists off of social media for inciting an insurrection.  They don't agree with you at all about increasing corporate taxes, breaking up the banks, reducing corporate influence on politics, etc.  Their solutions on how to deal with the problem of corporations are not at all similar to yours.

This is the inevitable failure point of horseshoe politics: while the far left and far right can come together in shared hatred for Joe Biden and the Democrats, they can never agree on what should go in his place when he's gone.

[Fau Teixeira]

Then in your view the solution for the disenchanted progressives is to all vote for a 3rd party, no matter how futile. Just all go Green or DSA. How are democrats going to win an election once that takes place?

The matter stands, the Left has a not insignificant amount of people that are disenchanted with the democratic status quo. Democrats can ignore that disenchantment to their electoral peril.

[Spider-Dan]

Then in your view the solution for the disenchanted progressives is to all vote for a 3rd party, no matter how futile.

It is not.  My solution is for progressives to stop focusing on the personality politics of trashing well-known Democrats, because that strategy is a loser (no matter how much the DSA and Jacobin types may enjoy it).  Progressives can work within the Democratic Party and fight for progressive policies WITHOUT all the BS of performatively shitting on every Democrat not named FDR (or boosting "Democrats" like Tulsi Gabbard who trash mainstream Dems, but from the right).

The matter stands, the Left has a not insignificant amount of people that are disenchanted with the democratic status quo. Democrats can ignore that disenchantment to their electoral peril.

This threat would carry more weight if progressives voted.  But they don't, which is why Bernie's electoral theory of "Drive more young progressives to the polls" failed to result in a nomination.  And paradoxically, when this is pointed out, the response of these same progressives is to say, "Well then I won't vote, or I'll vote third-party!"  Which... is what we have expected from them all along, because they aren't reliable voters!

They aren't even reliable voters for people like Bernie Sanders and Nina Turner, whom they supposedly love.  This is why Bernie has these huge rallies in districts he goes on to lose.

edit: I understand that there is a "chicken or the egg" element here: does the Democratic Party fail to pay heed to progressive voters because they don't vote, or do progressive voters fail to vote because the Democratic Party fails to pay heed to them?  However, I would say the performance of Bernie's presidential campaigns is evidence to support the former claim.

That all being said, I still support progressive policy within the Democratic Party.  Not because I think it will earn votes from Berniecrats - I don't - but because it's the right kind of policy to pursue.  So this whole dynamic of "You'd better do what we say or we won't vote for you" is not even relevant to me... I'm not doing it for their votes, because they don't vote and I don't see them as winnable.  I'm doing it for the electorate.

[masterfins]

Then in your view the solution for the disenchanted progressives is to all vote for a 3rd party, no matter how futile. Just all go Green or DSA. How are democrats going to win an election once that takes place?

The matter stands, the Left has a not insignificant amount of people that are disenchanted with the democratic status quo. Democrats can ignore that disenchantment to their electoral peril.

IMO you incorrectly believe that the "progressives" in the Democratic Party make up the majority of the Democratic Party, they do not.  The "progressives" in the Democratic Party are in effect a 3rd party.  If the Democratic Party catered to everything the progressives want the party would lose half its membership to the Republican or Independent Parties.  The Democrats have already alienated many middle class citizens in their party, like myself, who see the progressives as a group that just wants to give handouts.  I believe in helping the needy, I believe in a higher national minimum wage, etc.; but I also believe you have to put effort in to succeed at life.  My opinion of the progressives is that they believe you should get a trophy just for showing up.

[masterfins]

Instead of the usual left vs. right discussions on this forum, I thought it would be fun to have a left vs. left conversation for a change.

LOL I hope you're finding your Extreme Left vs. Moderate Left conversation fun, I know I am.

[Dave Gray]

If the Democratic Party catered to everything the progressives want the party would lose half its membership to the Republican or Independent Parties.  The Democrats have already alienated many middle class citizens in their party, like myself, who see the progressives as a group that just wants to give handouts.  I believe in helping the needy, I believe in a higher national minimum wage, etc.; but I also believe you have to put effort in to succeed at life.  My opinion of the progressives is that they believe you should get a trophy just for showing up.

Of course if you give everyone what they want, you'll lose a large group of voters.  But the same is true of giving progressives nothing that they want.

I self-label as a progressive and I completely disagree with your assessment of how my mind works.  I don't want handouts.  But I do believe that there is value in the collective and that you can't get rich alone.  All this "I got here with hard work" is bullshit.  It's partially true, but you worked hard within a system where lots of other people worked hard and didn't get to share in those riches.

I am for Universal Health Care, Schools, etc.  Things that benefit everyone -- broadband, travel systems, etc -- it's beneficial to society as a whole to have those things run by the collective.  It's not a handout.

I don't think your worth of health care when you're sick comes down to how much money you make.  Your ability to get treatment should be the same if you're a janitor or a board executive or an old person or an infant.

But I don't consider myself extreme at all or for any of that to be an extreme position.

[Spider-Dan]

LOL I hope you're finding your Extreme Left vs. Moderate Left conversation fun, I know I am.

I always find it hilarious to be referred to as the "moderate left."

I have a coworker who thinks I'm a neoliberal corporate shill because I do not recognize the Democratic Party as the greatest threat to progressive policy in America.

[Fau Teixeira]

I always find it hilarious to be referred to as the "moderate left."

I have a coworker who thinks I'm a neoliberal corporate shill because I do not recognize the Democratic Party as the greatest threat to progressive policy in America.

“Privileged classes do not give up their privileges voluntarily.” — Martin Luther King

[MyGodWearsAHoodie]

I always find it hilarious to be referred to as the "moderate left."

I have a coworker who thinks I'm a neoliberal corporate shill because I do not recognize the Democratic Party as the greatest threat to progressive policy in America.

The democratic party is not moderate left, it is center right.  The republican party has moved all the way to fascist.  There is no left party in America. 

[Spider-Dan]

[MyGodWearsAHoodie]

Nice meme, but false.  Democrats immigration policy is inline with most of Europe— committed to barely follow the minimum standards of the 1951 Treaty on Refugees.  Republicans policy is to punish refugees by permanently separating them from their children.

The democrats are right of center on heath care ALONG WITH maternity leave, minimum wage, taxes, education, public transportation, gun control, crime and punishment, labor unions, paid sick leave, retirement, environment, abortion, death penalty, military spending, law enforcement spending, etc.

[Spider-Dan]

Any Democratic politician who proposed that the 14th Amendment was never meant to confer birthright citizenship on the children of illegal immigrants, and that steps should be taken to correct that oversight, would be a pariah and outcast within the Democratic Party.  Birthright citizenship for children born on American soil regardless of the parents' immigration status is absolutely inviolable within the Democratic Party.  That alone puts the Dems far to the left of European liberal parties on immigration.

edit: But maybe I'm wrong.  Do you have an example of a policy of similar intent and scope to, say, DACA, but in a European country?

[Tenshot13]

The republican party has moved all the way to fascist.

LMFAO, you never cease to amaze me with the ridiculous shit you say.

[Dave Gray]

LMFAO, you never cease to amaze me with the ridiculous shit you say.

I know we talk in hyperbole a lot, but this isn't a crazy statement.

There is no functioning moderate Republican party.  They staged an insurrection to overthrow the government and have failed to try and go after anyone responsible.  Anyone who does (there are like 3 of them) is a traitor within their ranks.  They are quite literally, without any irony or joking -- a threat to the very basic concepts of having a democratic government.

They literally (not even me saying it for funsies; they actually don't have one) a party platform of ideas.  Their entire written, stated platform was to support President Trump.

Their numbers are shrinking and they're combating it with voter suppression, gerrymandering, and laws that allow them to purge ballots, discard votes, and ultimately overturn elections.  Our government already is heavily skewed against the people who actually vote -- with gerrymandering, electoral college, court packing, etc. ...yet the GOP continues to make it worse.  They are not representative of their constituents and are fighting against the very core of democratic rule.


It's not really an opinion -- they are absolute becoming fascists.  No bones about it.

[Sunstroke]

I may be old and grumpy, but I can say, with no reservation, that the far right in this country is about as close to true fascism as I would've ever guessed a political party in a democratic country could go.

Now...get the fuck off my lawn.