Nina Turner and the anti-Democrat left

[Dolphster]

I may be old and grumpy, but I can say, with no reservation, that the far right in this country is about as close to true fascism as I would've ever guessed a political party in a democratic country could go.

Now...get the fuck off my lawn.

Well crap, since you and Dave both feel that way, I'm going to have to give this more thought than I really wanted to.  LOL   You two are the biggest check and balance system that I have for my own views here on TDMMC.  Is it possible that the term fascist has become a little diluted over the decades?  Because when I think fascism, I think of Italy under Mussolini and Nazi Germany. 

[Dave Gray]

Is it possible that the term fascist has become a little diluted over the decades?  Because when I think fascism, I think of Italy under Mussolini and Nazi Germany. 

I don't think so.  Mussolini and the Nazis were fascists, too.  But they were also killers, genociders, ethnic cleansers, and a bunch of other terrible shit.  They just used fascism to get and hold power.

I don't like the hyperbole of calling the GOP Nazis.  That is unhelpful.  It also downplays how bad Nazis are.

But, when you look at the definition of fascism: authoritarian ultranationalism characterized by dictatorial power, forcible suppression of opposition, and strong regimentation of society and of the economy

Authorian Ultranationalism - No doubt.
Dictatorial Power - Trump literally did a power grab after losing a democratic election.
Forcible Suppression of Opposition - Gerrymandering, voter-suppression
Regimentation of Society - I'll leave this one up to you, since I think it's more gray area, but the culture war against Mexicans/Black people/Trans/Atheists, I would argue would fall into this.

[Sunstroke]

Is it possible that the term fascist has become a little diluted over the decades?  Because when I think fascism, I think of Italy under Mussolini and Nazi Germany.  

I believe it's not only possible, but highly likely. Between social context and misinformation, I'm surprised that anyone gets the definitions right any more...especially for terms that often require interpretation.

As for Nazi Germany...I lived for 2 years in the former SS barracks in Berlin, complete with the Teutonic eagles painted on the walls. I'll stop three blocks short of calling America a fascist country at this point, but when I hear the majority of GOP leadership talk these days, I can't help thinking that fascism is what they actually want.

Now...what are you folks still doing on my lawn?

[Fau Teixeira]

I don't think so.  Mussolini and the Nazis were fascists, too.  But they were also killers, genociders, ethnic cleansers, and a bunch of other terrible shit.  They just used fascism to get and hold power.

I don't like the hyperbole of calling the GOP Nazis.  That is unhelpful.  It also downplays how bad Nazis are.

But, when you look at the definition of fascism: authoritarian ultranationalism characterized by dictatorial power, forcible suppression of opposition, and strong regimentation of society and of the economy

Authorian Ultranationalism - No doubt.
Dictatorial Power - Trump literally did a power grab after losing a democratic election.
Forcible Suppression of Opposition - Gerrymandering, voter-suppression
Regimentation of Society - I'll leave this one up to you, since I think it's more gray area, but the culture war against Mexicans/Black people/Trans/Atheists, I would argue would fall into this.

I don't think you need to have 100% of the same symptoms to diagnose something so close to similar it doesn't matter.  And I agree with you, I think it's unhelpful to compare the GOP to nazi's, the historical parallels for Trump were always way more on the Mussolini side than anything dealing with genocide or anti-semitism. The hallmarks of fascism are unfortunately all over the place for the GOP. Especially the Cauthon / Desantis / Greene / Boebert / Gaetz wing of the GOP which seems to be driving the party.

[Dave Gray]

Dave, I'm glad to see you pushing back on this.  During the primary it seemed like you were getting third-party curious.

No, not at all.

In the general, third parties are off the table, short of not voting for someone in an active scandal or something.  I will vote for the candidate between the two most electable choices that most mirrors my views.

I've voted third party a couple of times in my life, but it was always in primaries or MAYBE in a situation where the outcome was already decided prior to me voting, so I threw a "protest" vote to hopefully move the candidate my direction for the general.

With the recent Dem field, I didn't have a perfect candidate.  The one that I just couldn't see myself supporting was Michael Bloomberg.  I honestly did feel like he would be such a walk backwards for progression of the party that it would be a net negative.  Now, I talk a big game about that now, but who knows -- I'd probably fall in line to vote for him against Trump if it really came down to it.  ...but I damn sure wouldn't be happy about it.

And Biden was my 2nd to last choice of the field.  I've always thought Biden was a decent guy and a good politician, but I thought he was too old and not a bold enough response to 4 years of Trump.  I never for a second said or thought that I wouldn't vote for Biden, though.

However, I have been impressed with Biden.  I've been wrong about the guy so far.

He doesn't tailor to me specifically and tell me what I want to hear all the time, but I think he has a very measured tone that's good for actually making things happen.  The right candidate for me would probably get obstructed all the time.  I think that the fights that Biden doesn't pick are politically smart for him.

[Fau Teixeira]

I believe it's not only possible, but highly likely. Between social context and misinformation, I'm surprised that anyone gets the definitions right any more...especially for terms that often require interpretation.

You see this alot with socialism in fact. The videos you can look up of mad conservatives yelling about not wanting socialism to mess with their Medicare or social security. It's just a serious of face palm videos one after another.

Even this gem from Elise Stefanik:
https://twitter.com/EliseStefanik/status/1421115026300186634

Today’s Anniversary of Medicare & Medicaid reminds us to reflect on the critical role these programs have played to protect the healthcare of millions of families. To safeguard our future, we must reject Socialist healthcare schemes.

It's like they advertise their ignorance

[Dave Gray]

Cauthon / Desantis / Greene / Boebert / Gaetz

I don't really put Desantis in league with those guys.

I think that Greene is a legitimate crazy person.  ...like certifiably needs psychiatric care.  She reminds me so much of someone in my family that went off the deep end.
Boebert is kinda in line with that but I think she's mean spirited and hateful and less crazy.
Gaetz is an opportunist who is kind of a dummy, but has just had it easy and been around money.
Cawthore is kinda a Gaetz/Boebert love-child, but maybe smarter and an opportunist.


I think Desantis really is just an opportunist.  He doesn't care about politics or ideology and sees a path to being powerful, so he's doing things that will ensure that for him.  All of the crazy shit that Desantis is doing -- he knows it's dumb to not have kids wear masks in school.  He knows that shit.  He just doesn't care, because it plays well to the rest of the country.  He is betting that he's going to win Florida anyway, but that this kind of lib-owning will play well in GOP primaries and he'll get the nomination, then try to run as a more moderate Trump.  His game plan is different than those others.

[MyGodWearsAHoodie]

Watch this to understand Trump

 https://youtu.be/1M6CXhUS-x8

[Sunstroke]

You see this alot with socialism in fact. The videos you can look up of mad conservatives yelling about not wanting socialism to mess with their Medicare or social security. It's just a serious of face palm videos one after another.

Even this gem from Elise Stefanik:
https://twitter.com/EliseStefanik/status/1421115026300186634

It's like they advertise their ignorance

Yeah, socialism is right there with fascism as far as people not understanding the definition. Just my opinion, but I think it is because most don't learn these terms from any formal education, but just when someone as ignorant as they are uses the term incorrectly.

Elise Stefanik is one of those people. Let's celebrate socialism...and then reject it. Sweet mercy...people actually voted for that moron.

The right candidate for me would probably get obstructed all the time...

The only qualification necessary for that would be for your candidate to be a Democrat. 

[Phishfan]

I hate it when he says stuff like that because Spider is actually a bright guy and even though we are very opposite in our views on almost everything, he usually expresses his views well and his posts make for interesting and sometimes thought provoking reading.  But he takes a huge step backwards in credibility whenever he says things like "The republican party has moved all the way to fascist"

Hoodie said it.

[Dolphster]

Hoodie said it.

Oh Jeez, you are right.  I'm a dumbass sometimes.  I don't know how I messed that up and thought it was Spider.  I will go back and delete my comment. 

[Dolphster]

I believe it's not only possible, but highly likely. Between social context and misinformation, I'm surprised that anyone gets the definitions right any more...especially for terms that often require interpretation.

As for Nazi Germany...I lived for 2 years in the former SS barracks in Berlin, complete with the Teutonic eagles painted on the walls. I'll stop three blocks short of calling America a fascist country at this point, but when I hear the majority of GOP leadership talk these days, I can't help thinking that fascism is what they actually want.

Now...what are you folks still doing on my lawn?

As usual, you and Dave provided food for thought by presenting a perspective that I wouldn't have looked at on my own.  Good discussion for sure!

That is crazy that the Nazi shit was still on the walls in Berlin.  Never been to Germany but I guess I assumed that they would have tried to eradicate the vast majority of the reminders of Hitler's regime by then.   Closest thing to that I have is that I hit Baghdad not too awfully long after we occupied what became known as "the Green Zone" and everywhere you turned there was something singing the praises of Saddam.  From the posters, to the monuments, to the architecture, to the palaces, etc.  That was kind of weird to be around that for a few months before most of it was destroyed or gotten rid of in one form or another. 

[MyGodWearsAHoodie]

I know what fascism is.  Here are the 14 characteristics

https://www.ratical.org/ratville/CAH/fasci14chars.html

[Spider-Dan]

I could see the argument that Trump is more accurately compared to Mussolini than Hitler, but for one exception:

Trump's policy of stealing children from immigrants and deporting their parents.

I do think that this is one of the most evil practices I've heard of from any Western democracy.  It's worse than torturing suspected terrorists, and by a wide margin.  It's not even remotely justifiable, and it was done specifically and explicitly to harm immigrants in hopes of deterring them from arriving.

And notably, it was executed at the southern border, almost exclusively on Latinos; an ethnic group that Trump repeatedly slandered.  So there certainly is a racial component in this atrocity.

So the idea that Republicans and Democrats are "the same except for woke virtue signaling" is disgusting.  It's an idiotic talking point from holier-than-thou purity leftists that is actively harmful to millions.

[Tenshot13]

It didn't take you guys long to get off of the left vs left thing to start bashing republicans again.