Ivermectin and Joe Rogan

[pondwater]

Harvard Law said one thing and a judge (on a case YOU cited!) said another; specifically, "public policy should not and does not support allowing physicians to try 'any' type of treatment on human beings."

Now, after all the flapping and squawking you did about how I refused to admit being wrong, seems like a ruling that contradicts YOUR position just gets hand-waved away while you admit nothing!  So maybe you should spend less time accusing others of trying to distract from their own wrongness when you happily ignore court rulings you don't like.
I don't actually care if you want to take prescription ivermectin for humans, or if you want to take horse deworming paste.  What I care about - regardless of the ivermectin source - is people taking ivermectin as an anti-COVID drug and ALSO taking up a hospital bed.  To make this 100% clear: my problem is not with the person taking ivermectin, it's that they were at a hospital while trying to do so.

So what you're trying to say is that one flip flopping judge makes me wrong when there are several other courts that have ordered Ivermectin to be administered. My whole point is that "off label" prescriptions are routine and legal. Did this ruling or any other ruling make "off label" prescriptions illegal? After you answer that question let me know what exactly I'm supposed to be wrong about?

You want to experiment on yourself with drugs that don't work? Do it at your own house, and get the hell out of the hospital so you can make room for someone that wants REAL medical help.

So now you're saying that people with Covid don't need REAL medical help? You know that anyone can catch, transmit, and die of Covid, even vaccinated people.

[pondwater]

"NHS Sequoyah" stands for "Northeastern Health System Sequoyah."

When a doctor describes the conditions in "southern and eastern Oklahoma," and an organization called Northeastern Health System - who was not named or cited by the aforementioned doctor - says, "We don't see this in our hospitals and this guy doesn't even work for us," what does that tell us about the original claim?

Similarly, when a different organization (McAlester Regional Health Center) says, "We aren't seeing this volume and this guy doesn't work for us," but they weren't cited in the first place, what should we take from that statement?  (I mean, setting aside the fact that this hospital might be nursing a grudge against this particular doctor.)

Has anyone that he actually works for made a statement?  Why, yes they have:

CEO of McCurtain Memorial Hospital Brad Morse (ed. note: in southeastern Oklahoma) said his hospital simply doesn't have all the equipment needed to care for such sick patients and there are no places to transfer them.

"Right now, no higher levels of care are taking our transfers," Morse said. "There are no ICU beds open."

The medical professionals said they're also seeing patients being admitted for taking Ivermectin, a horse deworming medication that has taken over social media for treating COVID, which they said is causing more unnecessary hospital visits.

"That's something that can be avoided," said Dr. McElyea.

We all know that people have been hospitalized due to non prescription Ivermectin. I'm waiting for you to provide valid information that substantiates the the claim that Oklahoma's ERs (plural) are so backed up/clogged with people overdosing on ivermectin that gunshot victims (plural) are having to wait to be treated. Your link doesn't back up your original fear mongering fake news you posted.

[Spider-Dan]

So what you're trying to say is that one flip flopping judge makes me wrong when there are several other courts that have ordered Ivermectin to be administered. My whole point is that "off label" prescriptions are routine and legal. Did this ruling or any other ruling make "off label" prescriptions illegal? After you answer that question let me know what exactly I'm supposed to be wrong about?

The judge didn't rule that off-label prescriptions are illegal; he ruled that a prescription is not an absolute and inviolable command, and that a hospital may not be forced to use ivermectin to treat COVID, against the recommendations of the relevant health authorities.

So now you're saying that people with Covid don't need REAL medical help?

No, I'm saying some of them (the ones taking hydroxychloroquine, ivermectin, coral calcium, etc.) don't want REAL medical help.  They want snake oil and bullshit.
So they should vacate the hospital bed and free it up for someone that does want REAL medical help.

We all know that people have been hospitalized due to non prescription Ivermectin. I'm waiting for you to provide valid information that substantiates the the claim that Oklahoma's ERs (plural) are so backed up/clogged with people overdosing on ivermectin that gunshot victims (plural) are having to wait to be treated. Your link doesn't back up your original fear mongering fake news you posted.

Hold on... the "debunking" statements YOU cited - from hospitals where the doctor in question doesn't even work - don't even mention gun shot wounds.  They don't disprove a damn thing about gun shots.

As for the information you are requesting... I literally just provided it!  Let me explain it for you in detail:.

CEO of McCurtain Memorial Hospital Brad Morse said his hospital simply doesn't have all the equipment needed to care for such sick patients and there are no places to transfer them.

"Right now, no higher levels of care are taking our transfers," Morse said. "There are no ICU beds open."

If there are no ICU beds open, then by definition, gunshot victims (plural) in need of intensive care cannot be treated!  Or is your argument that they are actually lying about the EXISTENCE of gunshot victims?

Now, why are there no ICU beds open?  Well, according to the administrators of the hospital in question:

The medical professionals said they're also seeing patients being admitted for taking Ivermectin, a horse deworming medication that has taken over social media for treating COVID, which they said is causing more unnecessary hospital visits.

Right-wing social media jumped all over the statements from two COMPLETELY UNRELATED hospitals that do not employ the doctor that was originally quoted, because they are all desperate to downplay the repercussions from conservative anti-vaxxers taking horse dewormer.  The original story WASN'T debunked; it was CONFIRMED by other staff at a hospital Dr. McElyea actually works at!

[pondwater]

The judge didn't rule that off-label prescriptions are illegal; he ruled that a prescription is not an absolute and inviolable command, and that a hospital may not be forced to use ivermectin to treat COVID, against the recommendations of the relevant health authorities.

Other courts have ruled otherwise.

No, I'm saying some of them (the ones taking hydroxychloroquine, ivermectin, coral calcium, etc.) don't want REAL medical help.  They want snake oil and bullshit.
So they should vacate the hospital bed and free it up for someone that does want REAL medical help.

In most of these cases the patient is intubated and/or close to death. The patient in question was in intensive care, intubated, and in a coma. So are you suggesting that a patient close to death just "vacate" the hospital? Are you suggesting that the patient just lay their and die without exhausting every option? We're talking about a drug that's been around for almost 40 years and recognized safe by the government and medical community. Sounds like you actually want people to die because you disagree with their politics. Doesn't surprise me though.

Hold on... the "debunking" statements YOU cited - from hospitals where the doctor in question doesn't even work - don't even mention gun shot wounds.  They don't disprove a damn thing about gun shots.

They don't mention gunshot victims because there's no shortage of beds caused by Ivermectin overdoses. In other words, there are no patients having to wait for services because because Ivermectin patients are clogging up the system. It's called cause and effect. There is no cause (overload of Ivermectin patients) so the effect doesn't exist (gunshot victims having to wait). The hospital you reference specifically says: 

Mary Clarke is a Stillwater family doctor and president of the Oklahoma State Medical Association. She said a combination of diseases like RSV, surgeries, and the delta variant all led to this dire situation.

I don't see her listing Ivermectin as a cause of the dire situation. Which means that Ivermectin overdoses aren't the cause.

As for the information you are requesting... I literally just provided it!  Let me explain it for you in detail:.

If there are no ICU beds open, then by definition, gunshot victims (plural) in need of intensive care cannot be treated!  Or is your argument that they are actually lying about the EXISTENCE of gunshot victims?

It's funny that the article that you linked doesn't mention gunshot victims either. Where are these phantom gunshot victims left to die in the waiting room. The information I'm requesting from you is specifically what you originally posted. Multiple hospitals (plural) confirming that their ICUs and ERs are clogged up with Ivermectin overdose patients. The original fake news story you posted is the only place I've seen that information presented as fact.

Now, why are there no ICU beds open?  Well, according to the administrators of the hospital in question:

Again, a direct quote from your own source says: a combination of diseases like RSV, surgeries, and the delta variant all led to this dire situation.

Right-wing social media jumped all over the statements from two COMPLETELY UNRELATED hospitals that do not employ the doctor that was originally quoted, because they are all desperate to downplay the repercussions from conservative anti-vaxxers taking horse dewormer.  The original story WASN'T debunked; it was CONFIRMED by other staff at a hospital Dr. McElyea actually works at!

In summary, your source says:

1. They had no ICU beds available.
2. That they were full due to diseases like RSV, surgeries, and the delta variant.
3. That they are seeing patients for taking Ivermectin.

What your source doesn't say:

1. Cause - Oklahoma's ERs (plural) are so backed up with people overdosing on ivermectin. As referenced in your fake news story.
2. Effect - Anything about gunshot victims (plural) . As referenced in your fake news story.

Do you expect people to believe that all the Ivermectin overdoses in the state of Oklahoma decided to all go to a single hospital at the same time? Even when the hospital in question doesn't even verify the original claims. Even when other hospitals are reporting exactly the opposite of the original claims. Why only Oklahoma? I mean if it's such a big issue wouldn't we see it nationwide? Wouldn't we have multiple reports across multiple states saying the same thing? Or is this one single hospital in Oklahoma like a leprechaun with a pot of gold riding a unicorn across a rainbow?

Again, can you provide credible evidence from multiple hospitals(plural) across Oklahoma that, Oklahoma's ERs are so backed up with people overdosing on ivermectin that gunshot victims are having to wait to be treated. You've only provided a single hospital that said they were full due to diseases like RSV, surgeries, and the delta variant. And that they have had patients admitted for taking Ivermectin.

Are you saying that the original article you linked is accurate?

[CF DolFan]

An actual "horse woman" I know posted this today and it made me laugh. Figured it would give you horse dewormer bashers something to talk about.

https://www.tiktok.com/@ranch_rumors/video/7007077979767557381?fbclid=IwAR0FMMUm_OcQ7dEwo6srRa_SWrFbjqYtOZHXJV6cAc2RBfT2rz1mlCm8vdQ&is_copy_url=1&is_from_webapp=v1

[Spider-Dan]

pondwater, please clarify something for me before the goalposts move any further:

Is your argument "This liar is claiming that multiple hospitals have to turn away critical patients - including: gunshot victims - from their ICUs because they are full (due, in some part, to ivermectin poisoning victims), but in reality, only one hospital has stated they have to turn away critical patients from their ICUs because they are full (due, in some part, to ivermectin poisoning victims)"?

Because if you concede the fact that critical condition patients in OK are being turned away due to full ICUs that have some portion of ivermectin poisoning patients, and we're just haggling over the precise (non-zero) number of hospitals that meet this condition... well, I'm not sure if this point has the weight you think it does.  It's definitely not "debunking" the original claim.

[pondwater]

pondwater, please clarify something for me before the goalposts move any further:

Is your argument "This liar is claiming that multiple hospitals have to turn away critical patients - including: gunshot victims - from their ICUs because they are full (due, in some part, to ivermectin poisoning victims), but in reality, only one hospital has stated they have to turn away critical patients from their ICUs because they are full (due, in some part, to ivermectin poisoning victims)"?

Because if you concede the fact that critical condition patients in OK are being turned away due to full ICUs that have some portion of ivermectin poisoning patients, and we're just haggling over the precise (non-zero) number of hospitals that meet this condition... well, I'm not sure if this point has the weight you think it does.  It's definitely not "debunking" the original claim.

The original claim is that "Oklahoma's ERs are so backed up with people overdosing on ivermectin that gunshot victims are having to wait to be treated."

That's not even close to the same thing as one single podunk hospital saying our ICU beds are full due to diseases like RSV, surgeries, and the delta variant. And by the way we've seen a few people that have taken Ivermectin. Hell, your source doesn't even claim that the few Ivermectin patients were even taking up ICU beds, just that they've been admitted. If you can't tell the difference between those two things, your mental capacity is questionable.

And more importantly, that same news outlet that you used as a source came out with another article 3 days later and the first words in the article were: A false report has Oklahoma trending nationally. Not to mention that Dr. Jason McElyea debunked the claim himself, in that article he said: "the story was wrong".

Since that claim is considered false and wrong by the original source, it's automatically debunked. And the worst part is that this story was debunked over 2 weeks ago and you're still defending it. It's sad that you are so invested in your radical agenda that you have to resort to fearmongering, fake news, and outright lies. It's not even debatable at this point. Hope that clarifies things for you before you try to move the goalposts any further.

So, are you still saying that the original article you linked is accurate?

[Spider-Dan]

Well, first of all, the original article I linked was on Yahoo News, themselves citing an article from KFOR-4.  Here's what KFOR had to say about it:

Editor's note:  Since this story was published, it has garnered national attention.  Our material was gathered from two events. On August 31st, the "Healthier Oklahoma Coalition" held a news conference with six doctors speaking to the media. One of those physicians, Dr. Jason McElyea, spoke about health care facilities being "backed up" with patients who were suffering from complications after taking Ivermectin. The next day, Dr. McElyea conducted a one-on-one interview with KFOR, repeating the information about facilities being "backed up".  At no point was Dr. McElyea referring to every hospital in the state of Oklahoma, and our reporting did not make that claim.

Representatives from two different Oklahoma healthcare organizations confirmed to KFOR their facilities are experiencing a sudden increase in the number of patients suffering negative side effects as a result of over-using Ivermectin.  One of the healthcare groups, which confirmed the increase, is Integris Health Systems.  They've since told us they prefer the term "congested" as opposed to "backed up", to describe the current situation.

KFOR-TV will continue to follow the studies that are currently investigating whether Ivermectin is an effective treatment or preventative agent against COVID.  KFOR-TV's reporting regarding the pandemic, proper COVID-19 safety precautions, and effective treatment protocols has been fact-based, accurate, thorough, and consistent.

And speaking of misquotes: in the KOTV-6 article you linked, Dr. McElyea did not say "the story was wrong."  He said, "That original story was just a little misquoted," which means that the original KFOR story was correct (again, as KFOR confirmed with their own later reporting) and some other outlets misquoted it.  (I'm sure you recognize the difference between "The story was misquoted" and "I was misquoted.")

But this seems like a waste of time, because in the "false report" article you just cited, they confirm AGAIN that the 1) the ERs are "congested" and 2) ivermectin is contributing to that congestion:

"What we can confirm is that we have seen a handful of ivermectin patients in our emergency rooms, to include INTEGRIS Grove Hospital. And while our hospitals are not filled with people who have taken ivermectin, such patients are adding to the congestion already caused by COVID-19 and other emergencies," the hospital group said.

Please note that INTEGRIS Grove Hospital is NOT the same facility as McCurtain Memorial Hospital, which was also on record confirming this issue.  But I guess if your position is that "one single podunk hospital" doesn't count, then two must not either, right?  

Now, to be fair, you did properly cite an article with an original source issuing a correction: the national stories of ERs "all across Oklahoma" being backed up are an inaccurate embellishment of the facts on the ground.  (That wasn't what the Yahoo News article I originally cited claimed, and it wasn't what the original reporting from KFOR-4 said, but I concede that some outlets may have been reporting it as "all Oklahoma ERs," which is false.)  Credit where credit is due.

So, in conclusion:

1) Several Oklahoma hospitals are currently backed up congested with critical patients
2) Among the causes of this congestion are patients suffering ivermectin poisoning due to taking products not intended for humans
3) This congestion is preventing some other patients (including: gunshot victims) from receiving care

Which part of the above is false?  Or do you simply consider it irrelevant if it's not the majority of OK hospitals?