FIRE CHRIS GRIER

[Dave Gray]

^ I'm not defending Grier, necessarily, but I think that it's hard to just look at results, in terms of whether guys are good or bad.

Nobody knows which of these players will be good.  There's a general consensus, you draft for needs and try to get as much value for the picks, and hope for the best.

I'm not super upset when we draft guys at positions we need and they don't pan out.  It's when we draft stupid picks that we don't need that really upsets me.

So, yeah, sure -- blame Grier, but I don't think you're necessarily going to get someone in who's better at evaluating the talent out of college.  Everyone is kinda working with the same information and some get lucky.

[CF DolFan]

He bet everything on the past two drafts. We sold the farm to get 9 picks in the top two rounds. Currently no one from round one of year one is making a difference and year two isn't doing too much better. Regardless of the reasons that's where we are at. At this point Waddle might be decent but no one else has shown much.

2020
5   Tua Tagovailoa   QB   Alabama   
18   Austin Jackson   OT   USC   
30   Noah Igbinoghene   CB   Auburn

2021   
6   Jaylen Waddle   WR   Alabama   
18   Jaelan Phillips   DE   Miami (FL)   

[Pappy13]

Chris Grier is responsible for this.  How can you say that he is not?

Chris Grier doesn't coach the players. This is the problem with blaming GM's solely. They don't coach the players, someone else does that. So you have a GM that picks the player. You have a coach that coaches the player and then you have the player. I'd say at most each is about 1/3 responsible for that players on field performance.

[CF DolFan]

Chris Grier doesn't coach the players. This is the problem with blaming GM's solely. They don't coach the players, someone else does that. So you have a GM that picks the player. You have a coach that coaches the player and then you have the player. I'd say at most each is about 1/3 responsible for that players on field performance.

LOL ... by your logic no one will ever get fired because they are only 33..3% responsible for anything. That means they are possibly doing a 66.6% good job.

[Pappy13]

LOL ... by your logic no one will ever get fired because they are only 33..3% responsible for anything. That means they are possibly doing a 66.6% good job.

Not true. If you think the coaching staff is doing a great job then you can certainly blame the player and the GM at that point. So the question is do you think the coaching staff is doing a great job? I don't. I'm not saying that Grier is doing a great job either but I think there's plenty of blame to go around. If 4 out of the 5 lineman were playing great and 1 wasn't, then I think you can say that particular player and whomever drafted him share the blame.

[EDGECRUSHER]

He bet everything on the past two drafts. We sold the farm to get 9 picks in the top two rounds. Currently no one from round one of year one is making a difference and year two isn't doing too much better. Regardless of the reasons that's where we are at. At this point Waddle might be decent but no one else has shown much.

2020
5   Tua Tagovailoa   QB   Alabama   
18   Austin Jackson   OT   USC   
30   Noah Igbinoghene   CB   Auburn

2021   
6   Jaylen Waddle   WR   Alabama   
18   Jaelan Phillips   DE   Miami (FL)   

I think we need to remove the 2021 draft from the evaluation since it's only been 3 games and 2 with a backup QB. We can trash his trade down from 3 to 6, but the players need a full year before we say anything.

As far as 2020 goes, anyone in his shoes would've taken Tua so even if he is a bust, I can't fault him for that. Austin Jackson is certainly disappointing this year so far and Noah was a terrible draft pick at the time and looks like an all-time bust right now being a healthy scratch all season. We can judge him negatively for that, although the Jackson case is so bizarre I might put a big chunk of the blame on coaching, O-Linemen just don't regress like he has.

[Spider-Dan]

The Noah pick was incredibly dumb on several levels before he even played a down - you already have the most expensive corners in the league and you're drafting another corner in the first round?  But the fact that Noah appears to be terrible makes the bad decision even worse.  If you're not going to draft for need, you damn well better be good at identifying talent.

[Dolphster]

The Noah pick was incredibly dumb on several levels before he even played a down - you already have the most expensive corners in the league and you're drafting another corner in the first round?  But the fact that Noah appears to be terrible makes the bad decision even worse.  If you're not going to draft for need, you damn well better be good at identifying talent.

I don't necessarily disagree with the Dolphins taking a CB in 2020 because I truly believe that in the pass-happy NFL, you can't have enough high quality DBs.  But hardly any of the experts had Noah projected as a first round pick.   Most had him in the second round.  He came out of college with the rep of being a fantastic athlete but raw and without a lot of experience. If Noah was the top CB on the Fins board at the 30th pick of the 1st round, then they should have drafted someone at another position (and they had plenty of other holes to address).  So from that perspective I definitely agree with your comment about "If you're not going to draft for need, you damn well better be good at identifying talent."   I think that is definitely true when it comes to Noah and it is a very insightful comment in general about the draft. 

[ArtieChokePhin]

I don't necessarily disagree with the Dolphins taking a CB in 2020 because I truly believe that in the pass-happy NFL, you can't have enough high quality DBs.  But hardly any of the experts had Noah projected as a first round pick.   Most had him in the second round.  He came out of college with the rep of being a fantastic athlete but raw and without a lot of experience. If Noah was the top CB on the Fins board at the 30th pick of the 1st round, then they should have drafted someone at another position (and they had plenty of other holes to address).  So from that perspective I definitely agree with your comment about "If you're not going to draft for need, you damn well better be good at identifying talent."   I think that is definitely true when it comes to Noah and it is a very insightful comment in general about the draft. 

When you draft for potential as opposed to production, it tends to bite you in the ass more often than not.   Diggs was available and could've been had in the second round.   Meanwhile, there were a plethora of talented running backs available at pick 30 (and also at pick 18 in the 2021 draft).   Grier has failed to address some important positions and failed to get the proper talent in others.

[CF DolFan]

As far as 2020 goes, anyone in his shoes would've taken Tua so even if he is a bust, I can't fault him for that.

Then why pay him 7 figures? I would expect he would know more than you and I or ESPN talking heads. I would take that position for far less, fire all the scouts and then use Mel Kiper's list ... LOL.

[EDGECRUSHER]

Then why pay him 7 figures? I would expect he would know more than you and I or ESPN talking heads. I would take that position for far less, fire all the scouts and then use Mel Kiper's list ... LOL.

Sometimes a GM is left with a decision that really is a no brianer, like the Jaguars GM this year with taking Lawrence. Of course he was going to take Lawrence, they would've fired him if he didn't. Whether or not it works out is irrelevant, it was the right call.

As far as Tua goes, we needed a franchsie QB and he had the pedigree to be one. The only other decision he could've made was take Herbert but that wouldn't have been very popular and the game tape said go with Tua. That could be a mistake over the next 5 years but it was entirely the right call at the time so I won't shit on him for it.

The Noah pick is 100% his fault, that was a reach, and a waste considering who we had on the roster at the moment. Rebuilding teams can't waste first rounders.

[masterfins]

When you draft for potential as opposed to production, it tends to bite you in the ass more often than not.   Diggs was available and could've been had in the second round.   Meanwhile, there were a plethora of talented running backs available at pick 30 (and also at pick 18 in the 2021 draft).   Grier has failed to address some important positions and failed to get the proper talent in others.

Agree, you can't draft for potential in the first two, or maybe even three, rounds.

 To be fair to Grier Miami has had a ton of holes to fill over the past four years, and you can't fill them all through the draft.  I think he's done a decent job addressing the most needed positions.  You can't blame Grier if Austin Jackson becomes a bust, every team had him as a first round pick, and Miami needed an O-lineman.  I don't recall anyone on here saying it was a terrible pick at the time.  Constantly changing the O-line coaches has a negative effect also, which is a whole other conversation.  Same with Tua.  With the exception of Pappy just about everyone on here was ga ga over drafting Tua, now before he's even played a full season worth of games people think Grier should be fired for drafting him, this is insanity.

[Dolphster]

When you draft for potential as opposed to production, it tends to bite you in the ass more often than not.   Diggs was available and could've been had in the second round.   Meanwhile, there were a plethora of talented running backs available at pick 30 (and also at pick 18 in the 2021 draft).   Grier has failed to address some important positions and failed to get the proper talent in others.

In theory, I agree with you about potential vs production.  But when we are talking about making draft selections, nobody has had NFL production.  The football unemployment line is full of kids who had great college production. In fairness to you, the unemployment line is filled with guys who had great potential too.  Someone from lets say a Mountain West Division might dominate production against other Mountain West teams and a guy from a top SEC program doesn't have such eye opening numbers, but he played against far superior competition. The SEC kid is going to be much more prepared to compete at the NFL than the Mountain West kid.    I'm not saying that production shouldn't be part of the evaluation process of course.  But I think that production at the college level is just one of several variables that they have to take into consideration when creating a draft board. 

Diggs is definitely looking good with the Cowboys, but again, hindsight is 20/20.  Coming out of college he had some of the same cons as Noah. He was considered athletic but raw and he had a rep for not getting his head around quick enough to track the ball and he was susceptible to double moves.  Don't get me wrong, I don't think Noah was worthy of a 1st round pick.  I didn't think it when they drafted him.  But they took who they took and took him when they took him.

Although RBs have a short shelf life and are often limited by the quality of the O Line they play behind, I do agree with you that the Dolphins should have made RB more of a priority both in 2020 and in 2021 drafts. 

[Dave Gray]

Then why pay him 7 figures? I would expect he would know more than you and I or ESPN talking heads. I would take that position for far less, fire all the scouts and then use Mel Kiper's list ... LOL.

You jest, but in terms of picking players, I think you're exactly correct.  If you just drafted the best guy on the big board on ESPN for positions of need, you'd be just a good a GM as anyone else.  I think it's the other parts of their job, like staffing and contracts and whatever else that really earns their money.

[Spider-Dan]

Although RBs have a short shelf life and are often limited by the quality of the O Line they play behind, I do agree with you that the Dolphins should have made RB more of a priority both in 2020 and in 2021 drafts.

I can't complain about the RB draft in 2021.   At 18, none of the top RBs had come off the board.  MIA was on track to get Williams, but DEN traded up; if MIA had traded up to get Williams earlier, I would not have been happy.  It is what it is.