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Author Topic: Oxford, MI school shooting  (Read 4511 times)
ArtieChokePhin
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« Reply #15 on: December 02, 2021, 08:07:44 am »

The solution for this is very simple.   No more gun free zones.  Either allow teachers to carry guns to school or put military personnel suffering from PTSD and unable to find work on the payroll as security.  Or both.   More restrictive gun laws won't stop a bad guy with a gun.  The only thing that will is a good guy with a gun.
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MyGodWearsAHoodie
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« Reply #16 on: December 02, 2021, 09:42:11 am »

The solution for this is very simple.   No more gun free zones.  Either allow teachers to carry guns to school or put military personnel suffering from PTSD and unable to find work on the payroll as security.  Or both.   More restrictive gun laws won't stop a bad guy with a gun.  The only thing that will is a good guy with a gun.

So let me make sure I understand your proposal.  You want to put armed folks trained in combat who are unable to cope with the stress of combat into our schools?
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SlothVomit
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« Reply #17 on: December 02, 2021, 09:52:29 am »

More restrictive gun laws won't stop a bad guy with a gun.  The only thing that will is a good guy with a gun.

This.

I fully believe in the right to own and carry. Do I believe every American should? No. Too many hot heads and dipshits out there, but I believe in the 2nd amendment for better or worse. I do not think the answer is to arm all teachers. I can imagine some would just fumble with a gun as not everyone is comfortable with a gun. Training is a solid start here, but funds. I'd rather arm a number of staff without knowledge of the students of whom is armed along with detectors. Deterrents are a useful tool and again training is as well. I don't have children but if I did in today's climate I wouldn't ever feel comfortable sending them to school. It would always be in the back of my mind.
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Dolphster
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« Reply #18 on: December 02, 2021, 09:56:34 am »

The solution for this is very simple.   No more gun free zones.  Either allow teachers to carry guns to school or put military personnel suffering from PTSD and unable to find work on the payroll as security.  Or both.   More restrictive gun laws won't stop a bad guy with a gun.  The only thing that will is a good guy with a gun.

I agree with you that "Gun Free Zones" are one of the stupidest ideas ever.  But speaking as a combat veteran, I'm not sure that military personnel with PTSD would be the best selection for armed security in schools.  At least at face value, I would be in favor of arming teachers as long as they went through an EXTENSIVE amount of training and psychological assessment. 
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Fau Teixeira
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« Reply #19 on: December 02, 2021, 10:05:33 am »

The solution for this is very simple.   No more gun free zones.  Either allow teachers to carry guns to school or put military personnel suffering from PTSD and unable to find work on the payroll as security.  Or both.   More restrictive gun laws won't stop a bad guy with a gun.  The only thing that will is a good guy with a gun.

Why don't we just strap exploding belts onto kids in schools and if they get uppity we just allow teachers to blow them up on a whim.

It may be a little bit less crazy than what you wrote.
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CF DolFan
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« Reply #20 on: December 02, 2021, 10:56:24 am »

As for the original topic:  what is there to discuss?  The kid will be convicted and literally nothing else will change.


Am I missing something? Isn't that the way our laws are written? Kind of odd for you to get punished for my crime but maybe I'm just crazy like that.
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MyGodWearsAHoodie
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« Reply #21 on: December 02, 2021, 11:07:26 am »

Deterrents are a useful

Arming teachers and SROs do absolutely nothing to deter a school shooting.  At best they reduce the casualty count. The swift action of the SRO as opposed to the one at Parkland contributed to *only* having four funerals rather than a dozen or more.

His parents NOT purchasing the gun a few days earlier or properly securing it would have reduced it to zero.
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CF DolFan
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« Reply #22 on: December 02, 2021, 11:32:04 am »


His parents NOT ... properly securing it would have reduced it ...

I agree with this although I do feel where there is a will there is a way. I'm sure most kids who are using illegal drugs aren't being supplied by their parents inability to lock theirs up. Basically what I'm saying is there will never be a zero chance of a kid getting a gun to use.
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pondwater
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« Reply #23 on: December 02, 2021, 12:07:28 pm »

That's an interesting take.  Let's explore that:
The current interpretation of the 2nd Amendment (the interpretation you like) only dates to 2008, less than a decade and a half ago.  Prior to that, it was well and fully understood that the right to bear arms listed in the 2nd Amendment applied to, ahem, a well-regulated militia, and did not entitle every American to to any kind of weapon they can get their hands on.  I know you're familiar with the 1934 National Firearms Act, so you should also be familiar with United States v. Miller (1939), which explicitly affirmed the ability of Congress to regulate weapons outside the use of "a well-regulated militia":

The Court can not take judicial notice that a shotgun having a barrel less than 18 inches long has today any reasonable relation to the preservation or efficiency of a well regulated militia; and therefore can not say that the Second Amendment guarantees to the citizen the right to keep and bear such a weapon.
All that typing and garble and all you have proven is that constitutionally guaranteed rights are subject to federal restrictions. That also includes abortion, for now. However, both cases before the SCOTUS are in reference to state restrictions on guns and abortions. Your radical hypocrisy is apparent when you think that NY should have the ability to legally restrict a constitutionally guaranteed right, but TX or MS shouldn't have the ability to legally restrict a constitutionally guaranteed right

Your post also highlights that the gun rights were established long before abortion rights. In fact it's literally spelled out in the Bill of Rights. No mention of abortion anywhere in the constitution. Let me say it again for those with radical agendas. The constitution actually spells out "the right of the people to keep and bear Arms". The constitution doesn't say anything about abortion. Abortion rights are an interpretation of the constitution.

So here's your choices if you want to have congruent views and not be a hypocrite.

1. All constitutionally guaranteed rights can have federal and/or state restrictions placed on them.
OR
2. All constitutionally guaranteed rights are absolute.

You can't have it both ways unless you're 6 years old....


But hey, we all know the REAL principle at play here, which is: if you're in charge, you make the rules.
Conservatives are in charge of the Supreme Court, so the rules are whatever they say they are.
Yeah, that's pretty much how it works. As you lefties like to say, "elections have consequences." They were warned not to use the "nuclear option" and it came back to kick them in the nuts.

So, just to see if I have your position correct. You think that regulating 1st and 2nd amendments are OK but regulating abortion isn't?
« Last Edit: December 02, 2021, 12:12:59 pm by pondwater » Logged

MyGodWearsAHoodie
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« Reply #24 on: December 02, 2021, 12:40:38 pm »

I agree with this although I do feel where there is a will there is a way. I'm sure most kids who are using illegal drugs aren't being supplied by their parents inability to lock theirs up. Basically what I'm saying is there will never be a zero chance of a kid getting a gun to use.

The better gun control won't reduce gun violence to zero, that is not the standard.  If this gun wasn't available he might have changed his mind in the time it would take to acquire one.  Many are impulsive, making getting a gun harder will prevent some of them.  Some are determined making gun acquisition harder will mean more red flags are raised beforehand
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SlothVomit
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« Reply #25 on: December 02, 2021, 12:49:12 pm »

Arming teachers and SROs do absolutely nothing to deter a school shooting. 

His parents NOT purchasing the gun a few days earlier or properly securing it would have reduced it to zero.


I disagree, however I understand your opinion. Anyone with knowledge that an armed adult is in the vicinity will have hesitation. Even if that does not stop them, I still see it as a deterrent. I don't think we can ever fully stop a child from gaining access to a weapon of any sort. It's a very unfortunate reality, but that's just the cold hard truth. But I am fully onboard with securing any weapon inside a household with children to one's best ability. I'm also very pro teaching children from a young age the responsibility of owning and using a firearm. Of course using you're best judgment. If you're kid is torturing animals I'd probably suggest not doing so.
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CF DolFan
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« Reply #26 on: December 02, 2021, 01:48:38 pm »

The better gun control won't reduce gun violence to zero, that is not the standard.  If this gun wasn't available he might have changed his mind in the time it would take to acquire one.  Many are impulsive, making getting a gun harder will prevent some of them.  Some are determined making gun acquisition harder will mean more red flags are raised beforehand
I don't disagree. I was just addressing the "zero" part of your comment. Some people really believe we can get to zero incidents and that will never be the case in our world of today. 
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MyGodWearsAHoodie
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« Reply #27 on: December 02, 2021, 02:24:14 pm »


1. All constitutionally guaranteed rights can have federal and/or state restrictions placed on them.
OR
2. All constitutionally guaranteed rights are absolute.

You can't have it both ways unless you're 6 years old....


#1.  There are 10x more restictions on freedom of speech than there is the second amendment. Exceptions to the 4th, 5th and 6th are so numerous it is literally an entire law school class.
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MyGodWearsAHoodie
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« Reply #28 on: December 02, 2021, 02:37:29 pm »

I don't disagree. I was just addressing the "zero" part of your comment. Some people really believe we can get to zero incidents and that will never be the case in our world of today. 

Nobody believes we can get to zero.  The problem is the people who claim we should do nothing unless it completely solves the problem.
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pondwater
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« Reply #29 on: December 02, 2021, 03:14:01 pm »

#1.  There are 10x more restictions on freedom of speech than there is the second amendment. Exceptions to the 4th, 5th and 6th are so numerous it is literally an entire law school class.
I don't really believe that statement. But then again I'm not keeping score and don't really care. Anyhow, from your post I'll assume that you picked #1

1. All constitutionally guaranteed rights can have federal and/or state restrictions placed on them.
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