This is fair

[Dolfanalyst]

Or maybe Flores was put in a situation that was destine to fail…….

Flores to Grier:  I have absolutely no confidence in Tua’s ability to play at the NFL level, he was great at the college level, but I don’t think he has what it takes to play at the NFL level.  Herbert on the other hand has all the tools needed to be a superbowl winning QB.

Grier: To effing bad, I make the personal decisions, figure out how to win with Tua.

Wouldn't be beyond the realm of possibility:

https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/report-joe-philbin-wanted-to-dump-tannehill-draft-derek-carr-in-2014/

And that's not a comment on anyone involved in that process (Philbin, Ireland, Carr, Tannehill, etc.) or how any of it turned out in the end.  It's merely a comment about how HC's can be overruled by GMs regarding the most important position on the field.

[Pappy13]

Whether Flores did want Tua or didn't want him, his coaching decisions regarding Tua were almost the worst possible choices at every junction.  Whether you are pro- or anti-Tua, is there anyone who can seriously say that they agree with how Tua has been handled?

No, but it WOULD seem to explain a LOT of stuff. If Flores didn't want Tua as the QB then it explains why Fitz was named the starter in 2020 despite Tua seemingly being healthy enough to play. It would also seem to explain why Flores continually said that Fitz was his starter in 2020 until suddenly Tua was declared the starter after the bye week coming off 2 straight wins by Fitzpatrick (seems pretty clear that Flores was either INSTRUCTED to start Tua or at the very least was getting pressure to start Tua and not that Flores just suddenly changed his mind and wanted Tua to start). It also would explain why Flores was willing to pull Tua in games where he struggled to put Fitz in. Perhaps that is when all this tension between Ross, Grier and Flores started and could be the reason that Flores is now gone and Tua and Grier remain...because Ross and Grier have chosen Tua over Flores. If that's the case that makes the hiring of the next NFL coach extremely challenging because despite what Ross said, the next head coach is going to have to agree with the decision that Tua is his QB and that's a hard sell to a lot of people in the NFL these days in my opinion regardless whether you think that's fair or not.

Trust me, if Flores actually did like Herbert more than Tua, I know EXACTLY how he feels and every one of Flores' decisions make sense now EXCEPT the decision to draft Tua. That makes no sense if your HC didn't want him.

[Spider-Dan]

Flores to Grier:  I have absolutely no confidence in Tua’s ability to play at the NFL level, he was great at the college level, but I don’t think he has what it takes to play at the NFL level.  Herbert on the other hand has all the tools needed to be a superbowl winning QB.

This is rapidly approaching the Nick Saban "I wanted Brees over Culpepper but I was overruled" level of delusional hindsight revisionism.  It is the equivalent of Todd Bowles saying, "I wanted to take Lamar Jackson but they overruled me and picked Sam Darnold."

I believe there was literally one professional pundit who thought Herbert should go before Tua.  Everyone else was screaming Tua.

[Spider-Dan]

Trust me, if Flores actually did like Herbert more than Tua, I know EXACTLY how he feels and every one of Flores' decisions make sense now EXCEPT the decision to draft Tua. That makes no sense if your HC didn't want him.

I was trying to avoid pointing this out because it's like a broken record at this point, but it seems like you're going to make it necessary:

You said that you didn't like Tua OR Herbert at #5 (specifically, that you would have liked to take Herbert at #18 but he was "a bit of a reach at #5") and that Miami should not take a QB at all with that pick.  If Flores agreed with that take, that's still a fireable offense.

[MyGodWearsAHoodie]

This is rapidly approaching the Nick Saban "I wanted Brees over Culpepper but I was overruled" level of delusional hindsight revisionism.  It is the equivalent of Todd Bowles saying, "I wanted to take Lamar Jackson but they overruled me and picked Sam Darnold."

I believe there was literally one professional pundit who thought Herbert should go before Tua.  Everyone else was screaming Tua.

No its not.  Every single piece of evidence you can present that Tua was mistreated/mismanaged is tangible evidence that Flores didn’t have confidence in Tua.  It doesn’t prove he wanted Herbert, but it is very obvious that he never wanted Tua.

[Pappy13]

I was trying to avoid pointing this out because it's like a broken record at this point, but it seems like you're going to make it necessary:

You said that you didn't like Tua OR Herbert at #5 (specifically, that you would have liked to take Herbert at #18 but he was "a bit of a reach at #5") and that Miami should not take a QB at all with that pick.  If Flores agreed with that take, that's still a fireable offense.

Yeah, I said that on January 29th....and here's the whole quote...

"For me, taking Tua at #5 seems to be reaching for a QB just for the sake of taking a QB. Originally I wanted to actually take Herbert with our 2nd pick at #18 which I thought was a good spot to take him, but seeing him rise up the boards now, that's no longer a possibility. So if you like him you're going to have to take him at #5 even though that might be a bit of a reach for him as well. If we are going to take a QB at #5, give me Herbert over Tua, but I'd be happy with passing on a QB at #5 completely as well and maybe get one of the others later."

The draft was in April if you will recall. By that time I had changed my mind and thought that we should take Herbert at #5 as it was obvious by then that he was going to go that high. I just didn't put that here on these forums or if I did I don't really recall and I'm not going to back and look at every single one of my posts here to prove it because I don't have to. I know what I was thinking before the draft better than you regardless of what you think and I couldn't care less what you think.

I believe there was literally one professional pundit who thought Herbert should go before Tua.  Everyone else was screaming Tua.

Doesn't say much about those pundits does it? Perhaps some lowly fan might even know better than they did. I can tell you this much I certainly wasn't the only fan saying we should draft Herbert at #5 instead of Tua, Reddit had plenty of those posts and there was quite the battle between Herbert fans and Tua fans on Reddit before the draft. But you know better, no one in their right mind thought Herbert was better than Tua, well some of us that apparently weren't in our right minds were right.

Anyone still holding out hope for Herbert over Tua at #5?

[Spider-Dan]

I'm sure Nick Saban also thought that the Dolphins should have rolled the dice on Drew Brees's shoulder, but just didn't mention it at the time.

We can all claim that we meant something different than what we said, when it later becomes convenient to do so.  It doesn't mean anything for you to repeatedly point out that you thought Herbert was a better prospect than Tua AFTER you said the Dolphins shouldn't take either QB with that pick.  Saying "MIA should pick Herbert instead of Tua" does not correct or change your take that MIA should really take a non-QB with that pick (because Herbert and Tua were "reaches").   If the Dolphins had listened to you, they'd probably have drafted Jordan Love at 18.

You may yet be able to claim that you were right about Tua being a bad prospect, but you were just as wrong on Herbert as everyone else.

[Pappy13]

You may yet be able to claim that you were right about Tua being a bad prospect, but you were just as wrong on Herbert as everyone else.

Whatever it takes for you to get through the day Spider. I have to live with the fact that Miami chose Tua over Herbert. You have to live with the fact you agreed with that decision.

[masterfins]

BTW .. why has no one mentoned that we were worse in year three than year two? In fact the only reason we were better than 8-8 was because we had an extra game.

Which team did we beat that was added as the 17th game that the Dolphins normally wouldn't have played based on prior NFL scheduling?

[Spider-Dan]

NYG

[MyGodWearsAHoodie]

Which team did we beat that was added as the 17th game that the Dolphins normally wouldn't have played based on prior NFL scheduling?

The extra game that was added because of the 17 game schedule was the Giants.

[masterfins]

Thanks Spider & Hoodie, I couldn't remember.

[Pappy13]

This is for Spider. Apparently there was more "buzz" around Herbert prior to the draft than you're leading on. This doesn't mean anything, I just stumbled upon it today and I thought that since someone went through all the effort to find all this information that would seem to counter your opinion that Tua was the clear consensus pick for the Dolphins before the draft that I should share it with you. Not everyone was as enamored with Tua as you were. Not that they were screaming Herbert, but they weren't screaming Tua either. It was interesting that one of the links was to Dan Orlovsky making the case for Tua before the draft, so it's really no surprise that he was critical of Miami's handling of Tua, he was clearly a fan of drafting Tua prior to the draft, others not so much.

Multiple Teams preferred Justin Herbert over Tua

[pondwater]

Flores didn't get along with GM, QB, his assistant coaches, the people in the building, and he constantly disrespected to people like Ross and Tom Garfinkel. Even if you think he was good at coaching it really doesn't matter if he was a good coach or not. He didn't fit in with the organization.

We all saw he wasn't very good as a game day coach and it didn't appear he was getting any better.

BTW .. why has no one mentoned that we were worse in year three than year two? In fact the only reason we were better than 8-8 was because we had an extra game.

Yes, it's about being a professional. There were several people above me at my prior job that I didn't get along with. However, I didn't specifically cause trouble with them. I didn't like them and they didn't like me, but I did my job better than 85% of the people there. At the end of the day it's a job not a social gathering. But it's also not supposed to be a drama filled reality show. Flores didn't understand that unless you're very successful, you can't just act however you want to the people that determine your future.

The way I see it, we gave Tannehill 6-7 years. Flores got 3 years. Tua deserves at least 3 years. We need to get him the best team we can to surround him. Then at the end of next year, if there isn't noticeable improvement we move forward and sabotage the next group of rookies.

You know it's funny. On social media the battle lines have been drawn. The Tua haters always complaining about Tua and saying that Flores was fired for being "mean" to people. I'll say he was fired for being unprofessional. Then on the other side you have the Tua lovers that think he's the next big thing.

I'm somewhere in the middle, I think this is a results based league, but I also recognize that sometimes it takes more than 2 years for a player to develop and reach their ceiling. Tua has been sabotaged since he entered the league and it isn't fair. But time marches on and results are all that matter. Maybe since Ross and Co. fucked up this situation with Tua, we can send him to that Jets and he can sweep us every year and take them to the playoffs for the next 10 years. That's exactly what Ross and Co. deserve, but the fans and players deserve better....

[Spider-Dan]

This doesn't mean anything, I just stumbled upon it today and I thought that since someone went through all the effort to find all this information that would seem to counter your opinion that Tua was the clear consensus pick for the Dolphins before the draft that I should share it with you. [...]

Multiple Teams preferred Justin Herbert over Tua

In order:

1) Injury risk.  Direct quote: "In a normal year, you could argue that Tua should be the #2 overall pick, and maybe even the #1 overall pick.  But because you're taking a third party's word for it when it comes to his medicals at this point in time, teams are going to be a little bit hesitant. And because of that, don't be surprised if Justin Herbert is the second QB picked because there are no questions about injuries when it comes to his evaluation."
2) Tannenbaum didn't think Tua had good enough scrambling ability and thought it would lead to more injury, specifically citing Wentz and Garoppalo as other examples
3) Injury risks.  Direct quote: "Why Herbert over the more proven Tagovailoa? That doesn't make sense based on my latest draft board, which you can see below, but there is a growing sentiment that it's wise to draft the quarterback who hasn't had three major injuries in the last two years even if he isn't as talented."
4) Injury risks.  But interestingly: "If teams are confident in Tagovailoa being healthy, it's also possible he could be off the board before the Dolphins' first pick comes up."  Of course, no such prediction for Herbert.
5) More than a year after the draft; meaningless hindsight criticism
6) More than a year after the draft; meaningless hindsight criticism
7) Injury risks; Herbert's talent not mentioned
8) Injury risks; Herbert's talent not mentioned
9) Injury risks; Herbert's talent not mentioned
10) Justin Herbert's coach at Oregon thought he was the better pick, just like Tua's coach at Alabama thought he was the better pick.  What does that tell us?

Virtually no one in the media thought that Herbert was more talented than Tua, only that he was more durable.  Now, if you want to make the argument that Tua's durability is holding the Dolphins back, go right ahead!  He has missed time in both seasons so far, and given how terrible the Dolphins' OL has been, anyone behind center is going to face a higher risk of injury than normal, so durability might be a high priority.

But of course, if MIA knew that OL would be a major, team-crippling problem in the near future, they probably would have been less likely to trade away their best value-for-the-pick OL draftee in decades.