The Brian Flores complaints as it relates to the Dolphins

[Dave Gray]

Racism in hiring:

I want to start by saying that I'm a white man, so my insight on systemic racism in the NFL probably isn't all that helpful.  That said, I think the Dolphins are clean here.  We had a black coach, a black GM, and I've never heard anything in regard to race with these players.  Ross was on the right side of the kneeling stuff.  He looks pretty clean, in that regard.  In regard to the NFL as a whole, I don't think that the racism stuff will stick there either.  With the Rooney Rule, there is a positive to it, but there's also a trade-off.  It's good to interview black coaches and GMs, even if they aren't to be hired.  It helps these guys get their names out there, it gets organizations used to the idea -- it just gets names on radars.  But sometimes you have your guy and you know who it is.  I have been a hirer before and often times, I'll have had one interview and known "well, that's our guy" and I'll still have 3 more interviews set up.  You go through the motions, because you never know, I guess -- things could fall through on the first hire, you want to give your interview team practice in evaluating, you want contacts for the future, etc.  But internally, it's super common to kinda know who you're gonna go with (or at least greatly suspect) before the interview process is over.  I also think that throwing Bellichek under the bus to accomplish this for Flores is a bad look.  The Rooney Rule is self-imposed by the NFL.  The optics are that they've tried, at least, and I think that any wrongdoing here will be hard to prove.

Tampering:

The story that Ross set up a bump-into meeting with Brady and Flores doesn't surprise me.  I think that all teams do this or some level of corporate espionage.  Pat Riley made a career of it.  But you have to be smart about it, it has to all be innocent on the surface, and you should have plausible deniability.  There's nothing wrong with Ross having relationships with Brady and Flores....or with Flores and Brady having a relationship with each other.  They're both pros in the same industry.  ...so if they meet and talk in a nebulous way about the future that turns into something later, I don't think we should be shocked by that.  But you have to be on the same page with your coaches and your team.  If you're Ross, you can't set that up in a way that makes Flores uncomfortable.  And if you're Flores, you can downplay it and just not break the rules if you meet Tom.  Flores coming out publicly about this makes him look unattractive to the rest of the league.  Again, as a hirer, whenever people are super critical of their old jobs publicly, it's kind of a red flag.  I sort of think of it like a break-up.  Things don't always work out, but there's a dirty laundry aspect here, that while probably true and we deserve to be held accountable for, is sour grapes on Flores' part.

Paying to lose:

This is the big one.  If it's true, or can be proved, this is a major scandal.  In terms of "everyone is doing it", yes -- everyone is doing it.  But there's a far cry between "we're not concerned about wins and losses now, at the expense of the future, so let's play younger guys to build them up faster, let's purge the roster of expensive contracts to make room for free agents" -- between that -- and "I'm going to pay you money to intentionally throw the games on Sundays."  I don't know the details of this yet.  But that plays into the integrity of the game.  It matters to the NFL as a whole -- gambling, fantasy sports, Draft Kings type of stuff.  There's big money and sponsors in that.  Plus, this gets into legality.  It's major.  Also, even if Ross were to try to get this idea to Flores, how does that even work?  Where does the money come from?  You can't just pay a million bucks to a guy off the books.  How was he supposed to get paid?  There's nothing wrong with Ross pulling Flores aside and assuring him that his job was safe and that he didn't have to worry about short-term results.  There are ways to get the point across without offering to directly pay the guy.  But Ross isn't dumb -- even if this happened, it's probably through other people where there's a line of deniability.  And the NFL likely won't concede this point, as the scandal would be enormous.  Even without anything, I wouldn't be surprised if the NFL had to respond by eliminating even suspicions of tanking -- implementing a lottery or something.

Trashing Flores in the media:

If this is true and manufactured, it's dumb on the Dolphins part.  Like Flores' trashing his former employer, it's bad form to trash an employee.  If you had to let someone go, wish them the best and it just didn't work out.  I suppose if the team did this, it was to turn the fanbase against Flores so the organization would maintain fan support.  That wasn't necessary (I thought Flores was a bum as a coach anyway), but either way, Ross miscalculated.  You can't help what people in your organization tell their friends in the media, off the record, though.  I have a feeling that Flores wasn't on the same page with most of the rest of the organization, justified or not, so that his peers were happy to see him go, and felt ok talking about it.  That speaks poorly of our organization's culture.  You'd like to think we'd be strong enough to let a guy go and not be afraid of losing fans over it, but we've been so sketchy over the past 20 years, that we've built this distrust.

The conclusion here is that if there's proof for this to stick, especially the paying to lose -- that Ross is done.  Flores is done, regardless.  True or not, I wouldn't think any owner wants to touch a guy that they can't trust not to turn on them.  All these billionaire guys are levels of sketchy and you want a guy that, even if he's not going to go along with your plan, that he's not going to rat you out once he's gone.  I have a feeling that this will amount to nothing, though.  It's all hearsay, and even if it's true, I don't see how it would be provable.  Plus I personally think that Flores was a bad gameday coach, so him calling foul after the fact is a little late.

[ArtieChokePhin]

I wanna address the racism in hiring.   This is probably going to go against the mentality of all the liberals on this board (and I know I'm outnumbered here) but so be it.  

I disagree with this whole idea of equality, affirmative action, Rooney Rule, etc...   It doesn't matter what ethnic background you are, the fact is, LIFE ISN'T FAIR.    I know in this society, you have your haves and have nots.    That's just how it is.   I know some people have it way worse than others simply because of the neighborhood they live in, family history, etc...   I'm part Caucasian/part Hispanic and I grew up in the Westchester area of Miami which is working class.   I can remember my dad dragging me out of bed at 6 am on a Saturday saying I'm going with him to cut grass and blow leaves off driveways which he did on weekends to make extra money after working all week maintaining office buildings.   I can remember being sent to my grandparents for a holiday weekend so my parents could get out of town, and their vacation was a cheap mom and pop hotel near the beach because that's all they could afford.   I remember my junior and senior year of high school being coerced by my parents to do the "shared time" program with Robert Morgan Vocational Technical Institute so I could learn a trade because they told me they didn't have the money to put me through college and weren't taking out loans for me.   I ended up choosing HVAC (back then it was A/C).   I remember at the age of nineteen going to work in my uncle's HVAC business which he founded and my first day he looked me in the eye and said, "You will get no special treatment here but I will make sure you have what all my other employees have... the knowledge and the tools to put in top quality work."   And I remember the day my uncle called me into his office nearly twenty years later and told me I was his top field technician which is why he always sent me to the hardest jobs or to the "big fish" clients and that he was hanging up his tools for good and trusted me enough to take over.  

Now I own my own business.  I'm going to hire whom I feel is the most qualified person for the job, regardless of if they are black, white, yellow, red or blue.   For the life of me, I can't understand why I should be forced to interview someone who obviously isn't qualified just because they are a certain race.   But that is what the NFL is forcing owners to do with the Rooney Rule.   It's THEIR team which makes it THEIR business that they put THEIR time and money into.  Period and end of discussion.

[Dolfanalyst]

This is probably going to go against the mentality of all the liberal's on this board (and I know I'm outnumbered here) but so be it.  

I disagree with this whole idea of equality, affirmative action, Rooney Rule, etc...   It doesn't matter what ethnic background you are, the fact is, LIFE ISN'T FAIR.    I know in this society, you have your haves and have nots.    That's just how it is.

That's "how it is" when it happens at random and not by systematic oppression.  You're talking about advantages people experience at random, over which no one has any control or influence.  By contrast, when you take a boat over to Africa and bring back people against their will and enslave them for hundreds of years, and then you segregate them in society, prevent them from voting, and prevent them from experiencing the advantages in life white people do, well then you're engaging in systematic oppression.  That's far from the random, "life isn't fair" sentiment above.  There is nothing random about systematically oppressing a group of people for hundreds of years.  That degree of "unfairness" isn't built into life by default, at random -- that level of unfairness was perpetrated on a group of people in a systematic manner, for hundreds of years.

Surely you don't figure the holocaust in Germany was a product of simply "life isn't fair"?  What's happened with African-Americans in America is about as bad.

[ArtieChokePhin]

That's "how it is" when it happens at random and not by systematic oppression.  You're talking about advantages people experience at random, over which no one has any control or influence.  By contrast, when you take a boat over to Africa and bring back people against their will and enslave them for hundreds of years, and then you segregate them in society, prevent them from voting, and prevent them from experiencing the advantages in life white people do, well then you're engaging in systematic oppression.  That's far from the random, "life isn't fair" sentiment above.  There is nothing random about systematically oppressing a group of people for hundreds of years.  That degree of "unfairness" isn't built into life by default, at random -- that level of unfairness was perpetrated on a group of people in a systematic manner, for hundreds of years.

Surely you don't figure the holocaust in Germany was a product of simply "life isn't fair"?  What's happened with African-Americans in America is about as bad.

But it isn't happening anymore and that's where I have an issue.   I didn't take part in that "systematic oppression" and never will.  Therefore, I shouldn't have to pay or be held responsible for the actions of people who died before I was born.    No one should be oppressed, but no one should get any special treatment either. 

[pondwater]

That's "how it is" when it happens at random and not by systematic oppression.  You're talking about advantages people experience at random, over which no one has any control or influence.  By contrast, when you take a boat over to Africa and bring back people against their will and enslave them for hundreds of years, and then you segregate them in society, prevent them from voting, and prevent them from experiencing the advantages in life white people do, well then you're engaging in systematic oppression.  That's far from the random, "life isn't fair" sentiment above.  There is nothing random about systematically oppressing a group of people for hundreds of years.  That degree of "unfairness" isn't built into life by default, at random -- that level of unfairness was perpetrated on a group of people in a systematic manner, for hundreds of years.

Surely you don't figure the holocaust in Germany was a product of simply "life isn't fair"?  What's happened with African-Americans in America is about as bad.

LMFAO, it's not the 1800s anymore. Or the 50s and 60s, it's 2022. The fact is that in 2022, the United States is the best country to live in for a minority. Is it perfect? Of course not. But slavery, segregation, and oppression don't happen in the US on a widespread basis like it does in many other parts of the world. If someone is so concerned with the issues that humans face with slavery, segregation, and oppression. Feel free to check out the list of other countries where that shit is widespread and legal. Then move there and go help fix it.

On another note. The word minority has a meaning and most societies are set up to benefit the majority in thousands of different categories. Do you think that a Caucasian person that goes to certain countries in Africa or other countries around the world will be treated differently in a negative context? You can bet your ass they would. Oh fucking well, life isn't fair.

So before we all cry for a black man that has a net worth that puts him in the top 1% worldwide. A black man that has been working in the NFL as a coach or scout for the past 18 years. A black man who reached the pinnacle of football coaching in the NFL. A black man who's ego was shattered because he didn't get the job that he thought he was entitled to. Let's all ask why he's doing this? And more specifically, if he's trying to fight "racism" like he says. Why are the Dolphins even mentioned in any of this? Are the Dolphins racist for hiring him? Flores is the epitome of entitlement and privilege.

[Spider-Dan]

But it isn't happening anymore and that's where I have an issue.   I didn't take part in that "systematic oppression" and never will.  Therefore, I shouldn't have to pay or be held responsible for the actions of people who died before I was born.    No one should be oppressed, but no one should get any special treatment either.

There are people still alive today who lived under that system when it was still in full force of the law.

It's not enough to just stop the oppression; you need to make up for the literal centuries that one group of people were held down.  As an analogy, imagine a relay race-style marathon.  At the start of the race, one team of participants have shackles put on them.  The race starts, and goes on for a good while, with the unshackled runners building a huge lead over the shackled runners.  Now, at some point, the race organizers decide that it's unfair to shackle one group, so they take the shackles off... but they're miles behind in the race at that point!

To continue the analogy, you are in the position of a runner receiving the relay baton on one of the never-shackled teams.  From your perspective, everyone is unshackled, and has been for a long time... and you weren't even running when the shackles were in use!  But the truth of the matter is that you still have a huge advantage from all that time the other runners were shackled.  And so when people talk about making the contest fair by giving bicycles to the relay runners for the formerly-shackled team - even the ones who have only started running after the shackles were already gone! - until they catch up to the rest of the pack, it might feel unfair to you.  But it's an attempt to make up for the unfair treatment from earlier.

In summary: it's not enough to simply remove the shackles and say "OK, everything's fair now."  You have to account for all the time that one team was held back by being shackled during the race.

[ArtieChokePhin]

There are people still alive today who lived under that system when it was still in full force of the law.

And those people now are living in a better society.

It's not enough to just stop the oppression; you need to make up for the literal centuries that one group of people were held down. 

No we don't need to make up for anything.   

It's not enough to simply remove the shackles and say "OK, everything's fair now."  You have to account for all the time that one team was held back by being shackled during the race.

We don't have to account for anything.   Everyone is on equal footing.   For those of you who were oppressed (and especially those who weren't) want to continue bitching about how unfair life is and use the past as an excuse to act out and feel sorry for yourself, you will never be able to get ahead in life and take advantage of the opportunities this country offers.

[Spider-Dan]

You are, of course, correct to point out that we don't need to make up for or have to account for anything.  Hell, we didn't need to end Jim Crow!  Power is power; survival of the fittest is a perfectly consistent philosophy, even if I don't necessarily agree with it.

Those who do think that we need to make up for centuries of oppression are saying so from a position of fairness, but one can have the position that life isn't fair and doesn't need to be fair.

However:

Everyone is on equal footing.

This is where you lose me.  I can grudgingly respect the law of the jungle, you sink or you swim philosophy, but don't try to pretend like everything IS equal today to prop up some fake theater of meritocracy.

At least have the courage to say, "It's not fair and it doesn't need to be fair, deal with it."  That is an ethos, at least.

[ArtieChokePhin]

life isn't fair and doesn't need to be fair.

According to your crusade on making up for years of injustice, it seems you don't believe in this.   But it's the truth.  Another truth is that kids don't now and never will learn this in school.   

Everyone in this country now has the rights and opportunities that everyone else does.   While the years of injustice were bad, there really is no making up for them.   All we can and should do is avoid repeating history moving forward.

[pondwater]

You are, of course, correct to point out that we don't need to make up for or have to account for anything.  Hell, we didn't need to end Jim Crow!  Power is power; survival of the fittest is a perfectly consistent philosophy, even if I don't necessarily agree with it.

Those who do think that we need to make up for centuries of oppression are saying so from a position of fairness, but one can have the position that life isn't fair and doesn't need to be fair.

However:
This is where you lose me.  I can grudgingly respect the law of the jungle, you sink or you swim philosophy, but don't try to pretend like everything IS equal today to prop up some fake theater of meritocracy.

At least have the courage to say, "It's not fair and it doesn't need to be fair, deal with it."  That is an ethos, at least.

I have the courage to say it, but in a different context. Life isn't fair and it never will be, deal with it. Fairness isn't a need, it's a want. There is no fixing that aspect of life. Otherwise, all the social justice warriors would be trying to fix it in all the countries where slavery is still widespread and legal

Also, to address your previous post, life isn't a race. Flores seems to have been given plenty of opportunities and yet he's still crying racism. Is it because the Giants as an organization is racist? Or because he (in his own words) was "humiliated" by the Giants interview that the Giants were contractually bound to conduct, and his ego wouldn't just let him move on?

[Dolfanalyst]

While the years of injustice were bad, there really is no making up for them.   All we can and should do is avoid repeating history moving forward.

That's precisely what things like the Rooney Rule strive to do.

[ArtieChokePhin]

That's precisely what things like the Rooney Rule strive to do.

And things like the Rooney Rule and affirmative action mean well, I'll give them credit for that.  But they have failed to accomplish what they've set out to do and put a burden on certain entities of society as a result.

[Spider-Dan]

According to your crusade on making up for years of injustice, it seems you don't believe in this.   But it's the truth.  Another truth is that kids don't now and never will learn this in school.

I have the courage to say it, but in a different context. Life isn't fair and it never will be, deal with it. Fairness isn't a need, it's a want. There is no fixing that aspect of life.

Then just say that, instead of trying to pretend that things have already been made equal!

I mean, if you don't even think things should be fair then own that position.  Whether or not we should TRY to make things fair is a discussion we can have on the merits.

But don't claim that we don't need to try to make things fair or equal because they already are.
They aren't.  Not even close.

[CF DolFan]

Minorities move here al the time with nothing and succeed because of the opportunities. Many minorities (definitely not all) who are born here tend to want to play victim to things that happened before they were born. This is the land of opportunity and not the land that outcomes are equal regardless of effort. I agree agree some people suffer racism but it is far les common than is reported. Typically people are either generally good and the rest are assholes ... racists and all.

Funniest thing to me about Flores' speaking engagements is he mentioned several times how there should be more black coaches. He goes on to say there are plenty of qualified black coaches in the league but are being held back by racism. Well Mr Flores hired 5 coordinators in three years and non of them were black. Does that mean he is racist or he hired the people who he thought would help him win?  Mr Integrity seems to have no issues speaking out both sides of his mouth.

[pondwater]

Then just say that, instead of trying to pretend that things have already been made equal!

I mean, if you don't even think things should be fair then own that position.  Whether or not we should TRY to make things fair is a discussion we can have on the merits.

But don't claim that we don't need to try to make things fair or equal because they already are.
They aren't.  Not even close.

Yeah, you're right things aren't fair in life. Depending on who you are and where you live it affects you differently. And going with the thread topic. How has Flores not been treated fairly in his NFL career?