Mike McDaniel and race/ethnicity

[Spider-Dan]

No I have not heard of her but it is perhaps another dad that needs a conversation with the mama.

I have to wonder whether you know any black families in real life...?  You seem to think it's uncommon for a child in a black (or "multiracial" if you prefer) family to be significantly lighter in skin tone; uncommon enough that the mother should be questioned about her faithfulness.

My dad's family is from New Orleans, and he has 5 siblings.  Of the 6 kids, three of them are MUCH lighter in skin tone than the rest, but my uncle and my dad both look very much like my grandfather.  I look like very much like my dad, but my skin tone is darker than either of my parents.  The idea that this is all the result of unfaithful women is ignorant of the experience that many similar families have.

[pondwater]

There are virtually no 100% black people anywhere in America, so this is a rather silly nitpick.  You're essentially arguing that black Americans don't really exist.

I mean, does Brian Flores even qualify as "black" in your world?

Since you claim to be on the side of facts. Factually speaking, is black, white, and multiracial the same thing or all different?
 

Your actual issue here is the existence of the Rooney Rule itself, not whether it applies to "black" coaches or "multiracial" coaches.  So you should stop trying to smokescreen the issue with nitpicking over "black" vs. "multiracial," especially since which term we use does not affect your particular position either way.

The actual issue is that the Rooney Rule isn't needed. According to Flores lawsuit:

Only 1 of the NFL’s 32 teams (3%) (9%) employs a Black Head Coach;
Only 4 of the NFL’s 32 teams (12%) employ a Black Offensive Coordinator;
Only 8 of the NFL’s 32 teams (25%) employ a Black Special Teams Coordinator;
Only 3 of the NFL’s 32 teams (9%) employ a Black Quarterback Coach; and
Only 6 of the NFL’s 32 teams (19%) employ a Black General Manager.

First let's address something. The first stat for head coaches in his lawsuit is disingenuous at best and an outright lie at worst. In 2021 there were 3 black head coaches (Tomlin, Flores, and Culley). And for 2022 Flores had no idea how many there would be. Therefore, in 2021 black head coaches made up 9% of the NFL, not 3%.

Now taking that into account. All of the numbers above are well within the range of the 12.4% of the black population. If you average those percentages you get 14.8% black coaches of the categories he listed. Therefore, black people are equally and adequately represented in NFL coaching per capita in the United States. That is equality

Whether you agree with the Rooney Rule or not, if Mike McDaniel has black grandparents, then he's a black "multiracial" man, regardless of what we think about his looks.

Yes, I agree with your fact. Just like it applies to our 1st black "multiracial" president and 1st black "multiracial" vice president. However, that doesn't stop the divisive media and ignorant people of the world conflating "black" and "multiracial" in order to push an agenda and false narrative.

[MyGodWearsAHoodie]

Since you claim to be on the side of facts. Factually speaking, is black, white, and multiracial the same thing or all different?
  The actual issue is that the Rooney Rule isn't needed. According to Flores lawsuit:
First let's address something. The first stat for head coaches in his lawsuit is disingenuous at best and an outright lie at worst. In 2021 there were 3 black head coaches (Tomlin, Flores, and Culley). And for 2022 Flores had no idea how many there would be. Therefore, in 2021 black head coaches made up 9% of the NFL, not 3%.

Now taking that into account. All of the numbers above are well within the range of the 12.4% of the black population. If you average those percentages you get 14.8% black coaches of the categories he listed. Therefore, black people are equally and adequately represented in NFL coaching per capita in the United States. That is equality
Yes, I agree with your fact. Just like it applies to our 1st black "multiracial" president and 1st black "multiracial" vice president. However, that doesn't stop the divisive media and ignorant people of the world conflating "black" and "multiracial" in order to push an agenda and false narrative.

Two things:

1. If we are going to exclude multiracial or biracial from equal footing with blacks as racial minorities, then the country is even more racist and segregated then otherwise reported.  The USA has never been willing to elect a black person to highest office.  There is an even disproportionately smaller number of black judges, cops, lawmakers, head coaches and CEOs than is routinely reported.  Making affirmative action and rooney rule like measures even more important.

2. Almost all 'blacks" have "white blood" because of the rampant rape that occurred under the slavery system.  If a slave was raped, had a daughter who was raped producing a granddaughter that was rape the great-grand child would be 87.5% of European decent and only 12.5% African, yet that child would be considered black and a slave. 

I, for one, would be perfectly okay with change the designation for things like the Rooney rule and affirmative action from black vs white to "descendant of US slavery" and "not a descendant of US slavery" Under such a classification Obama would not be eligible for AA but Mike McDaniel would be.   

[Spider-Dan]

pondwater is basically saying that there are no true black people in America, since those of mixed heritage are "multiracial," and calling people like Obama or Kamala Harris "black" (or them calling THEMSELVES "black") is "racist."  (But somehow, not Brian Flores, whom pondwater calls "black"?  The idea that Kamala Harris isn't black but Brian Flores is makes no sense whatsoever.)

I don't understand the point of that argument, since you can just replace "black" with "multiracial" and LITERALLY ALL THE SAME POINTS STILL APPLY.  It's some sort of weird fixation.  What difference does it make if we call McDaniel "black" or "multiracial"?  The point I was making is that we shouldn't try to judge his ethnicity by a photograph.

[MyGodWearsAHoodie]

pondwater is basically saying that there are no true black people in America, since those of mixed heritage are "multiracial," and calling people like Obama or Kamala Harris "black" (or them calling THEMSELVES "black") is "racist."  (But somehow, not Brian Flores, whom pondwater calls "black"?  The idea that Kamala Harris isn't black but Brian Flores is makes no sense whatsoever.)

I don't understand the point of that argument, since you can just replace "black" with "multiracial" and LITERALLY ALL THE SAME POINTS STILL APPLY.  It's some sort of weird fixation.  What difference does it make if we call McDaniel "black" or "multiracial"?  The point I was making is that we shouldn't try to judge his ethnicity by a photograph.

True, and while I am okay with the current classifications.  I actually think a better classification would be descendant of slavery or not.    Trevor Noah was a victim of South African racism not American racism.  Obama did not have slave ancestors.  Obama's descendants all came to the USA the for the same reason mine did, because they viewed the USA as better than their homeland. Likewise Japanese Americans whose grandparents were interned by the USA are descendants of victims of  American racism.  Japanese Americans who immigrated to the US after WWII don't get the same claim.     

[Spider-Dan]

Since you claim to be on the side of facts. Factually speaking, is black, white, and multiracial the same thing or all different?

Ethnicity is itself a construct, defined by society.  In our society, it's possible to be combination of black, white, or multiracial.

The actual issue is that the Rooney Rule isn't needed.

Then make that argument, instead of trying to insist that calling a person with black grandparents "black" is racist.

First let's address something. The first stat for head coaches in his lawsuit is disingenuous at best and an outright lie at worst. In 2021 there were 3 black head coaches (Tomlin, Flores, and Culley). [...]

Yes, I agree with your fact. Just like it applies to our 1st black "multiracial" president and 1st black "multiracial" vice president. However, that doesn't stop the divisive media and ignorant people of the world conflating "black" and "multiracial" in order to push an agenda and false narrative.

So wait a second: You say that Brian Flores - son of Honduran immigrants (via Mexico) Raul and Maria Flores -  is "black," but Kamala Harris is "multiracial" and it's racist to call her "black"?

Is your standard of who qualifies as "black" based strictly on skin tone?  Because according to your own standards, you're divisively pushing a false narrative when you refer to Flores as "black" but Obama, Harris, and McDaniel as "multiracial."

[pondwater]

Ethnicity is itself a construct, defined by society.  In our society, it's possible to be combination of black, white, or multiracial.

Yes it's entirely possible to be any combination. However, you didn't answer the question. Do black, white, and multiracial exist on their own?

Then make that argument, instead of trying to insist that calling a person with black grandparents "black" is racist.

Because if they have one white parent and one black parent they aren't black. Just like they aren't white. They are bi/multi racial.

So wait a second: You say that Brian Flores - son of Honduran immigrants (via Mexico) Raul and Maria Flores -  is "black," but Kamala Harris is "multiracial" and it's racist to call her "black"?

Is your standard of who qualifies as "black" based strictly on skin tone?  Because according to your own standards, you're divisively pushing a false narrative when you refer to Flores as "black" but Obama, Harris, and McDaniel as "multiracial."

Thanks for proving my point. Now specifically, is Flores black or multiracial? Seems you've painted yourself into a corner

[Spider-Dan]

However, you didn't answer the question. Do black, white, and multiracial exist on their own?

This wasn't the question you asked.  You asked if they were "the same thing or all different" and I said that you can be multiple of them at once.  If you're asking me if I believe they can exist on their own, sure... but I'm not the one out here calling people "racist" for referring to people as "black" if they aren't purebloods.

Because if they have one white parent and one black parent they aren't black. Just like they aren't white. They are bi/multi racial.

Then why are you calling Brian Flores black?

I'm also interested to hear how deep this rabbit hole goes.  Can Malia and Sasha Obama be called "black" in your world, or does their "multiracial" father disqualify them?

Thanks for proving my point. Now specifically, is Flores black or multiracial? Seems you've painted yourself into a corner

Again, you're the only one trying to police who is and is not allowed to be called "black," while insisting that anyone who doesn't conform to your standard is "racist."  It's YOUR corner and YOUR paint.

To answer your question: Flores is both black AND multiracial, just like Obama and Harris.  I don't know if Mike McDaniel considers himself black, multiracial, or both... so maybe you should ask him, instead of calling people "racist" if they refer to him as "black."

[MyGodWearsAHoodie]

Thanks for proving my point. Now specifically, is Flores black or multiracial? Seems you've painted yourself into a corner

You got that backwards.  You have pointed yourself in a corner.  Your racism is very blatant.  

[Dolfanalyst]

The one thing I'll add to this is that I think any discussion about discrimination due to skin color or other physical features does have to take into account the appearance of individuals and whether their skin color or other features have been likely to prompt any discrimination of them during their lives.  Simply checking a box "multiracial" or "identifying as" multiracial, alone, certainly doesn't mean the individual has been likely to experience discrimination similar to that of someone who appears to be part of a group that's been discriminated against, historically.  I mean people are using their eyesight in large part as part of this equation of discrimination.

[Spider-Dan]

That's a fair point, and it's a complex issue.  Even if McDaniel himself may have been able to pass as white, if he was raised in a household with (a) black parent(s), then like all children, he was tangentially affected by the treatment of his parent(s).

We can have a discussion over whether we believe Mike McDaniel is likely to have directly suffered racial discrimination, but that's a completely discussion from whether he is allowed to be categorized as "black," "multiracial," or "white."  And we can have that same discussion about Mariah Carey, Derek Jeter, Meghan Markle, or Halsey; none of which is a reason to insist that they may not be classified as "black."

[pondwater]

This wasn't the question you asked.  You asked if they were "the same thing or all different" and I said that you can be multiple of them at once.  If you're asking me if I believe they can exist on their own, sure... but I'm not the one out here calling people "racist" for referring to people as "black" if they aren't purebloods.
Then why are you calling Brian Flores black?

The better question is: Why would you label a multiracial person as specifically black or white when they aren't specifically black or white? Unless of course you're trying to discount the opposite ethnicity and genetic traits that makes them multiracial in the first place.

If you mix chocolate and vanilla cake batter together do you have chocolate cake batter, vanilla cake batter, or multi flavored cake batter?

I'm also interested to hear how deep this rabbit hole goes. Can Malia and Sasha Obama be called "black" in your world, or does their "multiracial" father disqualify them?

Disqualify them from what? Is being black somehow superior to being multiracial or white? "In my world", my opinion is that everyone is equal. But I guess "in your world", not being black is being disqualified from something.

Again, you're the only one trying to police who is and is not allowed to be called "black," while insisting that anyone who doesn't conform to your standard is "racist."  It's YOUR corner and YOUR paint.

This is pure facts vs feelings here on your part. You can call your penis a smoked sausage for all I care. However, that doesn't make it fact.

You don't get to personally choose what you are in regards to sex and ethnicity. They are set at birth, you are what you are. It's like science or something.

To answer your question: Flores is both black AND multiracial, just like Obama and Harris.  I don't know if Mike McDaniel considers himself black, multiracial, or both... so maybe you should ask him, instead of calling people "racist" if they refer to him as "black."

How can Flores be multiracial? According to you, are his parents both from the same ethnic background?

On the other hand. According to Obama, his father was Kenyan and his mother was from Kansas. Different ethnic backgrounds.

Likewise, Harris's father was from Jamaica and her mother was from India. Different ethnic backgrounds.

I'll ask again, is Flores black or multiracial?

[Spider-Dan]

The better question is: Why would you label a multiracial person as specifically black or white when they aren't specifically black or white?

You tell me!  You cheerfully (and repeatedly) labeled Brian Flores as black, which seems to be at odds with your claim that it's racist to use that term to describe anyone who is not a pureblood...?

If you mix chocolate and vanilla cake batter together do you have chocolate cake batter, vanilla cake batter, or multi flavored cake batter?

Terrible analogy.  Vanilla extract is used in as flavoring in many recipes that are not considered "vanilla," including "chocolate" cake.  I guess calling them "chocolate" cakes must be discounting the significance of vanilla!

Disqualify them from what? Is being black somehow superior to being multiracial or white? "In my world", my opinion is that everyone is equal. But I guess "in your world", not being black is being disqualified from something.

Again, you're the only one saying that it's racist to call Obama or Kamala or McDaniel "black."  I'm not the one declaring what designations are and are not allowed; which descriptions are "fact" and which are "feelings."  That's all you: your paint and your corner.

How can Flores be multiracial? According to you, are his parents both from the same ethnic background?

Again, you tell me: you're the one who has repeated called Flores "black."  I think "black" people can also be "multiracial," but you've repeatedly insisted that such a belief is racist.  Not factually incorrect - not a difference of opinion - no, racist.

I'll ask again, is Flores black or multiracial?

I've already said he's both.  Now, time for you to answer the question: how did you come to the conclusion that Brian Flores is "black" but Kamala Harris is not?

[pondwater]

You tell me!  You cheerfully (and repeatedly) labeled Brian Flores as black, which seems to be at odds with your claim that it's racist to use that term to describe anyone who is not a pureblood...?

Well shit Spider, you're correct, I was wrong. Flores isn't black or multiracial. He seems to be hispanic. His complaints about "black" discrimination against him don't apply since he's not black.

However, you're also wrong. Since both of his parents are Honduran he isn't multiracial. And if you go by percentages, he's more white than black. Hahaha, life's a trip

The make up of Honduras is:

Mestizo          6 886 470    82,93%
White               653 637      7,87%
Indigenous        601 824      7,25%
Garifuna             61 617      0,74%
Black                 54 178      0,65%
Other                 46 046      0,55%

Terrible analogy.  Vanilla extract is used in as flavoring in many recipes that are not considered "vanilla," including "chocolate" cake.  I guess calling them "chocolate" cakes must be discounting the significance of vanilla!

I said chocolate and vanilla cake batter, not vanilla extract. But ok here's a better analogy since you seem to be intentionally obtuse. What do you get if you you mix yellow and blue? Does it result in yellow or blue? Or something else entirely?

Again, you're the only one saying that it's racist to call Obama or Kamala or McDaniel "black."  I'm not the one declaring what designations are and are not allowed; which descriptions are "fact" and which are "feelings."  That's all you: your paint and your corner.

At face value, by the same token Obama could equally be called white? And if so, why is he propped up as a "black" man in the public sphere?

Again, you tell me: you're the one who has repeated called Flores "black."  I think "black" people can also be "multiracial," but you've repeatedly insisted that such a belief is racist.  Not factually incorrect - not a difference of opinion - no, racist.

How can someone who's multiracial be black? Why is "black" specifically picked over the other ethnicity in a multiracial person? Why does it take precedence?  You haven't addressed this part.

I've already said he's both.  Now, time for you to answer the question: how did you come to the conclusion that Brian Flores is "black" but Kamala Harris is not?

Like I said, I was wrong, he's not black. I was under the assumption that he was black because his own lawsuit focuses on "black" discrimination against him. However, that's a bogus claim since both of his parents are Honduran which interestingly means that he isn't really multiracial either. My mistake.

So there, I admitted I was wrong. Don't you feel like a such a winner? You would think that you could trust a person claiming "black" discrimination would actually be black. But then again, you know what they say about assumptions. I got hoodwinked.

 
Now explain how you came to the conclusion that a person with 2 Honduran parents is either black or multiracial. What are you basing it on?

[Spider-Dan]

Well shit Spider, you're correct, I was wrong. Flores isn't black or multiracial. He seems to be hispanic. His complaints about "black" discrimination against him don't apply since he's not black.

However, you're also wrong. Since both of his parents are Honduran he isn't multiracial. And if you go by percentages, he's more white than black. Hahaha, life's a trip

To sum up your contributions to the discourse so far:

1) it's racist to call Obama "black"
2) actually, it's more accurate to call Brian Flores "white" than it is to call him "black"

The takes are getting more galaxy-brained by the second.  Your premises are so incredibly busted that your conclusions don't even qualify as wrong.
It's some the square root of blue is grape level logic.