Russia's invasion of Ukraine

[Spider-Dan]

Seems like there has largely been bipartisan condemnation of the Russian invasion, though there are some notable exceptions like Trump.  Hard to imagine any outcome here other than Russia simply absorbing Ukraine.  Putin's speech earlier this week appears to indicate that he would like to restore the borders of the (pre-Soviet) Russian Empire; this is essentially impossible unless NATO dissolves.

Ukraine's president, Volodymyr Zelenskyy, has rejected offers for safe passage out of Ukraine.  He is likely a high-priority target for capture and execution.  If there is a future with an independent Ukraine, he will probably be considered a founding father-type figure, not unlike Nelson Mandela in South Africa.  He is certainly showing a lot of courage by remaining.

[Downunder Dolphan]

This whole thing is a scary situation for so many reasons.

First and foremost is the welfare of the people of Ukraine - they did not ask for this war, but Dictator Presdent Putin made up a bullshit excuse to invade with a view to overthrow a genuine democratically elected Government for a puppet one of his own. Putin basically telegraphed what he was going to do, massing up to 140,000 troops around three flanks of Ukraine with the help of a compliant Belarus. This was always going to be a strike towards the capital Kyiv and changing the fabric of the country, yet few seemed to believe he had the balls to do something so brazen - it just goes to show how clueless some "experts" really are... Today the former President of Ukraine (Poroshenko, the one who Putin actually backed before he lost the last election) had a video of himself arming up to fight for the country, along with the current President (Zelenskyy). Former foes are freedom fighters, it's that desperate in Kyiv already, in the space of just a few days.

Ukraine had hinted about wishing to become a NATO country, but because they hadn't they are basically on their own, exposed without additional military help - in short, they'll put up a fight, but they're screwed. They are set up as a sacrificial lamb with the hope that Putin will not advance beyond their borders. Neighboring NATO countries (like Poland and Romania) won't do anything except supply weapons and aid, plus take refugees, while fortifying their own borders in case he tries to extend beyond Ukraine. Moldova isn't so lucky, they're not a NATO signatory, they already have a Russian presence in their east (Transnistria) and are already looking at the possibility that they're next... if push comes to shove, I'd bet they will roll over without much of a fight. It may not make much difference anyway - there's another Russian territory Kaliningrad, lying between Lithuania and Poland. Putin can use the same bullshit lie that this region is being subject to genocide/separation from Russia as a flashpoint, and send the military in. One of the Russian tanks driving through Chernobyl today had an old Soviet/U.S.S.R. flag hoisted high above the canopy, and more than a few are guessing that's Putin's real ambition...

There is so much that is scarily mirroring the build up of World War II, like Putin accusing the west of being "war mongers" in a massive disinformation campaign just like Hitler did before the shit hit the fan. Economic sanctions so far have done nothing, yet the West seems powerless to act until Russia sets foot in a NATO country... and by then it may be way too late. Already Putin has hinted at the use of Nuclear weapons in the event of any foreign resistance to his actions... and then there's China, with their own ambition...

They are one of the few significant voices not calling out Russia on the Ukraine invasion for good reason. They have basically gone about changing Hong Kong's political system to a puppet one, in the process defying the handover by the British, while the West seemed powerless to do anything about it. Next on their list of the "One China" dream of their Dictator President, is the assimilation of Taiwan. They have already simulated war exercises in Taiwan airspace (sound vaguely familiar?). NATO and the rest of the West being caught guessing about what's happening in the aftermath of Ukraine gives them the perfect opportunity to strike while they are distracted. China has already carried out major cyber attacks in the West, pissed on free trade agreements and hitched up tariffs to try and cripple other nations economies, while trying to bribe/bully other vulnerable nations in the Pacific region to gain support.

Where does it go from here? Who knows, but I'm guessing it can't be good. The really annoying thing about this is that the West allowed it to happen in the last 20 years, all in the name of greed and "globalization" (corporate for greed). Dealing with these Tyrants with fake democracies and nuclear capabilities in the vain hope that capitalism would somehow dull/warp their lust for blood and power has failed - it has only done the opposite. They appear (at least in their own minds) richer, stronger, more vicious and twisted, and convinced the West has been weakened/compromised while boosting their own coffers. Russia & China right now think that together they are powerful enough not to give a shit about what anyone else in the world does, and look like they're willing to show it.

Oh, and Trump can go fuck himself.  

[Downunder Dolphan]

Today the former President of Ukraine (Poroshenko, the one who Putin actually backed before he lost the last election) had a video of himself arming up to fight for the country, along with the current President (Zelenskyy). Former foes are freedom fighters

Ps. On second thought I'll reserve my judgement of the footage of Poroshenko arming up until after the conflict is over - if by some coincidence Zelenskyy is captured/killed and somehow Poroshenko winds up as Ukraine's President again with Putin's blessing, then you know this was another diabolical setup and he is the puppet Putin wants there.

[ArtieChokePhin]

When Trump first became President, he met with Putin and when they shook hands, Trump pulled Putin close with such force and whispered in his ear that he'd better not fuck around with Ukraine or anyone else.  Had the election been counted truthfully, Trump would still be in office and this would never have happened.   As it is, Biden is showing the entire world what a fucking pussified leader he is.   

[Spider-Dan]

When Trump first became President, he met with Putin and when they shook hands, Trump pulled Putin close with such force and whispered in his ear that he'd better not fuck around with Ukraine or anyone else.  Had the election been counted truthfully, Trump would still be in office and this would never have happened.

You are referring to the same Donald Trump that withheld Congress-apportioned defense funding aid from Ukraine, in order to pressure them to manufacture dirt on Joe Biden... the guy that ended up beating him in the election.

If Trump were in office today, the US would not only be opposing international sanctions against Russia, but the Trump Administration would be cheering Putin on.  You can tell because right now, Trump is cheering Putin on!

[ArtieChokePhin]

You are referring to the same Donald Trump that withheld Congress-apportioned defense funding aid from Ukraine, in order to pressure them to manufacture dirt on Joe Biden... the guy that ended up beating him in the election.

If Trump were in office today, the US would not only be opposing international sanctions against Russia, but the Trump Administration would be cheering Putin on.  You can tell because right now, Trump is cheering Putin on!

If Trump were in office today, this shit over in Ukraine would not be happening.   And I can see why Trump is secretly cheering Putin on.  Putin  is proving to the world how pathetically weak Biden is

[Downunder Dolphan]

You are referring to the same Donald Trump that withheld Congress-apportioned defense funding aid from Ukraine, in order to pressure them to manufacture dirt on Joe Biden... the guy that ended up beating him in the election.

If Trump were in office today, the US would not only be opposing international sanctions against Russia, but the Trump Administration would be cheering Putin on.  You can tell because right now, Trump is cheering Putin on!

The same Donald Trump who kissed Putin's ass continually after he helped get him elected in the first place via the Russian cyber attacks in the 2016 election.

The same Donald Trump who while in office proposed weakening the USA contribution to NATO, making Putin's march through Europe so much easier.

When Trump first became President, he met with Putin and when they shook hands, Trump pulled Putin close with such force and whispered in his ear that he'd better not fuck around with Ukraine or anyone else   "Thanks buddy! Let me know if there's anything you want or need. I owe you."

[Downunder Dolphan]

If Trump were in office today, this shit over in Ukraine would not be happening.   And I can see why Trump is secretly cheering Putin on.  Putin  is proving to the world how pathetically weak Biden is

If Trump was in office today, he would have taken absolutely no action in regard to the invasion of Ukraine. No sanctions, no support, nothing.

As Spidey mentioned, he'd likely be opposing the European led sanctions against Russia.

[ArtieChokePhin]

If Trump was in office today, he would have taken absolutely no action in regard to the invasion of Ukraine. No sanctions, no support, nothing.

As Spidey mentioned, he'd likely be opposing the European led sanctions against Russia.

That's bullshit.  And coming from a guy whose country will go on lockdown when there is one positive COVID case, I'm not surprised. 

[Downunder Dolphan]

That's bullshit.  And coming from a guy whose country will go on lockdown when there is one positive COVID case, I'm not surprised.  

Speaking of bullshit, the poor animal must have been backed up in agony for days if not weeks before that massive one dropped out!

[Downunder Dolphan]

As it is, Biden is showing the entire world what a fucking pussified leader he is.  

Getting back to the topic at hand, I actually agree with you that Biden is a weak leader. However I disagree that Trump would have realistically done much if anything more under the circumstances (for reasons previously mentioned). The ridiculous idea that Putin would never have invaded if Trump was still in power (because of a handshake and secret whisper) is not even worth discussing.

Western intelligence basically knew of the Russian build up in Belarus for months (stretching back to last year). They could have sent arms (but not troops) to help bolster Ukraine any time between then and the invasion to prepare, but dithered. By the time they started sending air defense missiles to Kyiv it was too little, way too late.

Successive governments (of all sides) have literally let Putin get away with murder - from the Georgia war, the annexation of Crimea and the downing of Malaysian Airline Flight 17 with Russian hardware, the poisoning of British citizens when he targeted Sergei and Yulia Skripal on UK soil. Reactions to these events have been pathetically inadequate.

It's with this background that Putin thinks he can get away with such a violation of human decency - because he has in the past with no real consequences.

[Spider-Dan]

If Trump were in office today, this shit over in Ukraine would not be happening.   And I can see why Trump is secretly cheering Putin on.  Putin  is proving to the world how pathetically weak Biden is

First of all, there's nothing "secret" about how Trump is cheering Putin on.  It's in full view of the public.

Second, it almost sounds like you believe that Trump wouldn't support a Russian invasion of Ukraine if he were still in the White House.  But this can't be true, because if it were, that would mean that Trump understands that the Russian invasion is against America's best interest, but is cynically rooting for it just because he thinks it makes Biden look bad.

In effect, what you are saying is the equivalent of one of us on the left openly admitting that we were only against the white nationalists at Charlottesville because we thought it would hurt Trump, but if Hillary had won we would have been cheering them on.  It's a pretty clownish thing to say.

[Spider-Dan]

Getting back to the topic at hand, I actually agree with you that Biden is a weak leader. However I disagree that Trump would have realistically done much if anything more under the circumstances (for reasons previously mentioned). The ridiculous idea that Putin would never have invaded if Trump was still in power (because of a handshake and secret whisper) is not even worth discussing.

Ironically, there is (potentially) some merit to the claim that Putin would not have invaded if Trump had won a second term.  Given how easily Putin has been able to handle Trump, and the fact that an invasion of Ukraine would have solidified NATO and galvanized the West's opposition (as it has now), Putin's better play would have been to continue manipulating Trump to undermine NATO from within, hopefully destroying the entire alliance... at which point Putin could have done what he wanted.

Putin's decision to move forward with this invasion indicates that, to at least some degree, he no longer has faith in Trump's future ability to significantly cripple NATO.

[MyGodWearsAHoodie]

never thought I would be quoting a Cheney……

"All Americans should renounce this garbage and reject the Putin wing of the GOP now,"

[CF DolFan]

The same Donald Trump who kissed Putin's ass continually after he helped get him elected in the first place via the Russian cyber attacks in the 2016 election.

The same Donald Trump who while in office proposed weakening the USA contribution to NATO, making Putin's march through Europe so much easier.

When Trump first became President, he met with Putin and when they shook hands, Trump pulled Putin close with such force and whispered in his ear that he'd better not fuck around with Ukraine or anyone else   "Thanks buddy! Let me know if there's anything you want or need. I owe you."

LMAO ... it's over. It doesn't seem like you've been paying attention to news outsdie of watching the View but a non partisan investigation has shown that Clinton people manuafctured what little evivence they pretended to have. The Rusian link, collusion, or whatever was faked. HAHAHA.

And Trump only said calling Putin's justification for sending troops into Ukrainian territory "savvy" and "genius."

Hegseth said on the Fox show "Jesse Watters Primetime:" "Here's the reality, Vladimir Putin lives rent-free in the minds of our media, of the American media. No organism, no entity has done more to spread Russian propaganda and to prop up the strawman that is Vladimir Putin than our very own media."

"And Donald Trump was happy to troll them on it, as he continues to do to this moment," Hegseth continued. "Because they can't resist it, and they'll obsess over it."

LOL ... this thread certainly proves that. It's pretty shitty what Putin is doing and we are allowing it but somehow Trump is more of a topic. Seems like logic would eventually win over a few of you.