Russia's invasion of Ukraine

[Spider-Dan]

I think it would take more than a stray missile; there was already the Russian drone that crashed in Croatia.

A targeted weapons attack on an area within a NATO country would certainly provoke a direct (but still proportional) response.
Russian troops actually invading a NATO country would immediately mean full-blown war (but not nuclear).
Any nuclear device detonated in a NATO country (or in Russia!) means all bets are off.

[Spider-Dan]

Dave, I still don't agree that we should escalate the war in Ukraine with more direct NATO involvement, but I did see an interesting article following the non-interventionist position to its extremely logical conclusion:

"[W]hen NATO refuses to get directly involved militarily in Ukraine—which is the right decision, given that Putin is a sociopath, has the largest nuclear arsenal in the world, and would have no hope of pacifying the West in an all-out direct military conflict except through the mutually assured destruction of nuclear war—it is, in effect, conceding Ukraine to Putin.

And the lesson Putin will learn from this is that if he wishes to reconstitute the Soviet Union, he has an open runway to do so over the long term at least as to non-NATO countries Moldova, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Tajikistan, Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan, Azerbaijan, Georgia, and Armenia (the last of which is a longstanding NATO partner, but not a NATO member). That’s nine countries, some European, that NATO is telling Putin he can have without a fight. It’s enough open trail to last Putin many more years of pursuing his sole lifelong ambition, during which time he would simultaneously be continuing his efforts to destabilize NATO, the EU, and America."

Unfortunately, there is no good solution to this problem.  The best I can hope for is that if Putin continues invading former Soviet republics, the sanctions will extend from Russia to those who are enabling Russia (e.g. China, the Saudis, India, etc).

[CF DolFan]

All my life, paying for the greatest military might in the world.  Protecting freedom, all that shit.  I'm not even for that kind of thing, but it's what we are.

What's it for, if not to protect a democratic sovereign nation from getting war crimes committed on them by a tyrant dictator who is lying and abusing power.  Is it because he's got nukes?  Is this what we do -- let crazy people do whatever the fuck they want because they might nuke us?  That's just a hostage situation.

I've seen us in so many murky conflicts where we didn't belong, farting around with no real discernable goal.

I wouldn't be mad if we declared war on Russia with 2 conditions.  We bring the pain, the sanctions and the drone strikes and blow up the Goddamn Kremlin until:
1) Russia leaves Ukraine in full.
2) Vladamir Putin is killed, captured, or voluntarily exiles.

Let his own people turn against him.  They don't want this war for that asshole.

Invite the rest of the world to join.

Obama fucked this up with Syria.  We just let these shitty assholes do whatever war crimes to democratic uprisings.  

Considering Russia is now saying they will use nukes against us if we don't return Alaska and California's Fort Ross to them for reparations it may be coming more clear that force up front may save a lot down the road. I even saw Bill Maher saying that Putin wouldn't be pulling this crap under Trump because Trump was so unpredictable in his resonses. Biden  ... not so much.

[ArtieChokePhin]

Dave, you are talking about America as World Police.

The U.S. has been the World Police ever since post WWII.   Korea, Vietnam, Desert Storm, Afghanistan, Iraqi Freedom, you name it.   It is what it is.

[MyGodWearsAHoodie]

Considering Russia is now saying they will use nukes against us if we don't return Alaska and California's Fort Ross to them for reparations it may be coming more clear that force up front may save a lot down the road.

Do you enjoy posting false and inflammatory lies for some sort of perverse pleasure or is it that you are incapable of understanding the difference between fact and fiction?  Based on your history it must be one or the other.

Tensions are high enough without posting stuff like this.  I noticed this time you didn't even post a link to the article that you completely distorted. 

What you posted is the equivalent of "US accuses Jewish space agency of using lasers to start forest fires in California.  War between Israel and US is immanent."

One member of the Russian house of representatives    parliament is demanding the return of Alaska.    A demand that a fringe portion of the Russians have been making for years. 

STOP WITH THE BULLSHIT POSTS

[CF DolFan]

Do you enjoy posting false and inflammatory lies for some sort of perverse pleasure or is it that you are incapable of understanding the difference between fact and fiction?  Based on your history it must be one or the other.

Tensions are high enough without posting stuff like this.  I noticed this time you didn't even post a link to the article that you completely distorted.  

What you posted is the equivalent of "US accuses Jewish space agency of using lasers to start forest fires in California.  War between Israel and US is immanent."

One member of the Russian house of representatives    parliament is demanding the return of Alaska.    A demand that a fringe portion of the Russians have been making for years.  

STOP WITH THE BULLSHIT POSTS

You crack me up. I really can't seem to understand the degree of boredom you have in your life. It's been getting broadcast on Russian State TV. That means it has been approved information by the Russian govornment but I get it though. You are the same person fighting against anyone having a gun yet you ar happy Ukraine has armed teenagers, grandparent, and tons of others with no training with semi automatic rifles. Basically you have no moral line but just like to argue. Good luck with that.

[MyGodWearsAHoodie]

You crack me up. I really can't seem to understand the degree of boredom you have in your life. It's been getting broadcast on Russian State TV. That means it has been approved information by the Russian govornment but I get it though. You are the same person fighting against anyone having a gun yet you ar happy Ukraine has armed teenagers, grandparent, and tons of others with no training with semi automatic rifles. Basically you have no moral line but just like to argue. Good luck with that.

It is not boredom, but being pissed at needing to google your fucking lies!!!!  Your constant lies.  Every time you post something, I go "what the fuck is he talking about?" then I google your claim and find an article on some fringe news source that doesn't even claim one tenth of what you are claiming.  Stop with the bullshit. 

[ArtieChokePhin]

It is not boredom, but being pissed at needing to google your fucking lies!!!!  Your constant lies.  Every time you post something, I go "what the fuck is he talking about?" then I google your claim and find an article on some fringe news source that doesn't even claim one tenth of what you are claiming.  Stop with the bullshit. 

Says the guy who thinks libraries are forms of communism.   

[MyGodWearsAHoodie]

Says the guy who thinks libraries are forms of communism.   

They are a form of socialism.  They meet the definition, but you refuse to accept that because you don't want to accept that socialism has many positive aspects. 

[ArtieChokePhin]

They are a form of socialism.  They meet the definition, but you refuse to accept that because you don't want to accept that socialism has many positive aspects. 

Maybe I just don't want to see it from you because half the stuff you post is completely uncalled for.   

[Spider-Dan]

You are the same person fighting against anyone having a gun yet you ar happy Ukraine has armed teenagers, grandparent, and tons of others with no training with semi automatic rifles.

Since you bring this up:  Ukraine has no 2nd Amendment (or equivalent), yet their government seems to be handing out weapons to their citizens without issue.  Of course, as we can also see, those semi-automatic rifles aren't doing a goddamn thing about Russian artillery shelling them from miles away, which tells you quite a bit about the value of armed civilians in a modern theater of war.

Maybe the real lesson here is that every American should (does?) have a constitutional right to a Javelin anti-tank missile, since those seem to be having the most success for Ukraine so far.

[CF DolFan]

Since you bring this up:  Ukraine has no 2nd Amendment (or equivalent), yet their government seems to be handing out weapons to their citizens without issue.  Of course, as we can also see, those semi-automatic rifles aren't doing a goddamn thing about Russian artillery shelling them from miles away, which tells you quite a bit about the value of armed civilians in a modern theater of war.

They still haven't taken then and in reality if other countries wanted to help they would. I can assure you if our govrnment turns on the people by an evil dictator that other countries would be here to help us and if they didn't ... we could survive in the wild for quite some time.

Maybe the real lesson here is that every American should (does?) have a constitutional right to a Javelin anti-tank missile, since those seem to be having the most success for Ukraine so far.

I have no issue. I live in the country and literally hear semi and seemingly automatic weapons almost every day. There is even an occasional blast or two.  None of my neighbors have been shot, mugged, and or raped to date that I know of.

[Spider-Dan]

The country with the evil dictator problem is Russia, not Ukraine.  And I assure you that more handguns would not solve Russia's problem, or even help appreciably.

From the standpoint of repelling an hostile invasion, handguns and rifles are not doing anything against Russia's airplanes and artillery.  What IS helping is the equipment that Americans are still not allowed to possess under the 2A: portable anti-tank missiles and anti-aircraft batteries.  When Ukraine asks for more help from NATO, "more handguns" is pretty far down the list.

[Spider-Dan]

Just saw this translation of a Putin speech from earlier today.  The video speaks for itself.  I think we can expect purges to begin within Russia shortly.

This brings up another question: is there any action that Putin could take strictly within Russia that would compel the rest of the world to invade and liberate the country?  I can't see it.  Maybe if he started nuking disloyal cities?

[Downunder Dolphan]

Just saw this translation of a Putin speech from earlier today.  The video speaks for itself.  I think we can expect purges to begin within Russia shortly.

This brings up another question: is there any action that Putin could take strictly within Russia that would compel the rest of the world to invade and liberate the country?  I can't see it.  Maybe if he started nuking disloyal cities?

Like I mentioned earlier, Russia is complex, but it's basically a police state with a compromised (ie. state run) media with everything outside being blocked out. There's a good chunk of the population who are happy mushrooms, locked in a dark room, being fed bullshit by the Government media and is unwilling to look at the daylight, what's happening outside of that narrative.

Those who do look outside the dark box and protest are arrested, beaten, and either driven out of the country, rot in a jail, or worse. Candidates at elections with a opposing agenda are subject to the same treatment (jailed, beaten, killed), so while the elections are prima face conducted in a genuine fashion, they are an absolute sham.

There are only two options to facilitate a real change with what has happened with the invasion of Ukraine. Either the world ratchets up sanctions enough that the entire economy of Russia goes broke in the next 2-4 weeks - that may influence the Oligarchs backing Putin, or the military involved in an expensive war in manpower morale and $$$ to move him on... but if this fails it could further establish Putin in as the overlord who cannot be toppled.

Or we all say fuck it, and the UN commits a (real) peacekeeping effort to clearing them out of Ukraine and restore the proper borders. Yes it is calling Putin's bluff of a nuclear retaliation - and given what he has already done with no prior consequences, and what he may interpret from the prior sanctions to damage of his considerable (est. $2bn+) personal wealth, there's no guarantee that line has not already been crossed. This guy is an A-Grade, card carrying asshole of the highest qualifications, and who does carry a grudge.

The massacres in Bucha should be a turning point. Even China has backed away from supporting Russia's narrative, asking for more independent sources of the atrocities committed (even though it has already been confirmed by multinational news resources on the ground). Sadly, it sounds like that's there's even worse throughout Ukraine...

The USA, UK, Australia Governments and the west are announcing more economic sanctions...  you wankers didn't think the previous shit was bad enough? How fucking bad does it have to get before you commit to full economic sanctions? What after that? Are you going to actually grow a pair of balls and do something?

I really do salute the bravery of the Ukraine people in the face of the worst possible odds, what they had to endure. It's the type of legend we beat ourselves up here in Australia, and I have no doubt you also do in the USA - the Victoria Cross/Medal of Honor winner who overcomes the worst of odds in bloody combat to triumph. These folks over there are living it right now... seemingly alone, and with rather minimal support.