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Author Topic: 2022 NBA Playoffs  (Read 2617 times)
ArtieChokePhin
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« Reply #15 on: April 11, 2022, 08:34:52 pm »

You constantly say the dumbest shit.  It's kind of amazing how you keep one-upping yourself.

Half of social media would agree with me.   Don't tell me you didn't see Twitter trolling LeBron after he announced he was sitting out. 

Not to mention that MJ would've never let this Lakers season play out the way it did.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2022, 06:30:09 am by ArtieChokePhin » Logged
EDGECRUSHER
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« Reply #16 on: April 12, 2022, 09:29:22 am »

Half of social media would agree with me.   Don't tell me you didn't see Twitter trolling LeBron after he announced he was sitting out. 

Not to mention that MJ would've never let this Lakers season play out the way it did.

I think the issue is the "caring about the fans" part. I don't think MJ hated the fans, but he played to beat everyone else, the fans cheering was a nice bonus.

I don't think anyone does or should think that Lebron is as fierce of a competitor as Jordan is. Injuries do happen to even the toughest people but Lebron is soft and Jordan never would've had such a shitty season with a stacked team. At the very least, he would've put Westbrook in his place during the preseason and told him who runs the show.
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stinkfish
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« Reply #17 on: April 12, 2022, 09:52:01 am »

Look, Lebron is old. He's breaking down. He's been in the game for too long. He has been given way too much power, discretion, and influence by every team that he's been on. He can hobble off into the sunset, and maybe take A.D. with him because he's just as injury prone. And please, don't mention Lebron James and Kobe in the same sentence unless it's something along the lines of KOBE > lebron.
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ArtieChokePhin
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« Reply #18 on: April 12, 2022, 11:34:29 am »

KOBE > lebron.

This we can agree on.
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« Reply #19 on: April 12, 2022, 11:44:48 am »

I think Lebron is the best player ever.

Kobe and Jordan may have been better scorers, but Lebron is truly a transformative player and is often the best player on the court at every position at the same time.

He has lots of haters, though.  Also, it's hard to compare across eras because things are so different in style.
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ArtieChokePhin
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« Reply #20 on: April 12, 2022, 12:30:54 pm »

I think Lebron is the best player ever.

Kobe and Jordan may have been better scorers, but Lebron is truly a transformative player and is often the best player on the court at every position at the same time.

He has lots of haters, though.  Also, it's hard to compare across eras because things are so different in style.

I disagree.   Jordan would have a field day in today's league.   He'd be averaging over fifty points a game.   Lebron would be banged up.   Guys like Hakeem Olajuwon, Charles Barkley, Patrick Ewing or David Robinson would knock him down if he tried to penetrate the lane against them.

You're right about one thing.   The style of the game is way different.   Back in Jordan's time, hand checking was legal and so were defensive three seconds.  And despite defenders being all up in his face, Jordan still put up amazing numbers.   Try having a guy like Steph Curry playing in Jordan's time.  I guarantee he wouldn't be as flashy as he is right now because guys like BJ Armstrong or Mark Jackson would hand check him to death and throw him off balance.

Today's game has such lax defense because most fans want to see high scoring games.   I don't need to see a 140-138 contest to think it's a good game.   Back in Jordan's time, you had a lot of 85-83 contests where teams were scrapping for field goals and rebounds and playing tough defense.   Those teams won titles.   That's good basketball to me.
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« Reply #21 on: April 12, 2022, 12:40:57 pm »

I don't agree with your assessment.  Steph Curry would break 90s NBA.  The 90s were all about big bruisers.

Now, the big guys can shoot.  You can't just camp under the basket anymore defensively. 

The way these guys shoot 3s, offensive centers that play with their back to the basket are liabilities.

It's moneyball for basketball.  They figured out that 3s are worth more than 2s, so if you can shoot a lot of 3s, you're going to win on the margins.  Whether you like defensive basketball or not is irrelevant.  ...you can't win with it.
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Spider-Dan
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« Reply #22 on: April 12, 2022, 07:53:05 pm »

Think about the last time you saw "illegal defense" called in an NBA game.

When Jordan played, zone defense was against the rules.  When zone defense is illegal, it's a lot easier for isolation players like Jordan to get a shot, as opponents either have to guard him 1-on-1 or double team him and leave another man wide open.

MJ and Kobe certainly had better support from their management than LeBron ever has.  Early LeBron made it to the Finals on the Cavs with some of the worst teammates ever to win a conference; since then, he's had to play backseat GM for every single one of his title teams in a way that MJ and Kobe never had to.  (MJ is notoriously terrible as a talent evaluator and Kobe is basically Jordan-but-worse in every aspect).

I don't think any of the three is the best ever - my vote goes to Kareem, who dominated at every level of the sport - but there's a solid argument for LBJ.  Kobe is not seriously in the conversation; he's not even in the top 5 of players to wear a Laker uniform.
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« Reply #23 on: April 12, 2022, 08:35:08 pm »

I mean...they're all the greatest, within a hair of each other.

The Jordan to Lebron comparison probably isn't even the most apt.  It'd make more sense to compare Lebron to Magic.

And Kobe isn't as good, but is comparable in type of play that Jordan is.

Lebron can bring the ball up and he can play center.  It allows for positionless basketball and there is a value in that that Jordan can't provide.  Jordan is a great scorer (and a great defender, too) in an era where those roles are so much more defined.

I honestly think that you took any of those old 90s teams and had them play against the modern NBA teams, they'd get smoked.  Those teams just were built to have to close out on a big man shooting a 3.  Those big men would get abused and a guy like Lebron bringing positionless basketball would shake things up too much and they would get rocked.
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stinkfish
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« Reply #24 on: April 12, 2022, 09:45:20 pm »

Kobe is not seriously in the conversation; he's not even in the top 5 of players to wear a Laker uniform.
Whoa. Hold your horses. Top three lakers for me is Kareem, Magic, Kobe. As much as it pains me, I might put Kobe ahead of Magic. I can’t think of any other player in recent history that could take over a game and carry a team to victory, especially after Jordan called it quits, than Kobe. And I think that it’s an absolute travesty that over a 20 year career Kobe only won one MVP. Kobe WAS the NBA for a time in his career.
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Bibamus, moriendum est

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Four legs good, Two legs better
Spider-Dan
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« Reply #25 on: April 12, 2022, 10:11:28 pm »

When Kobe and Shaq were on the same team, at no point was Kobe even plausibly the better player.  This is clear because, during that time period, Shaq won 1 regular season MVP and 3 Finals MVPs, while Kobe won nothing.  Shaq was a better player than Kobe, period; if there was ever a point where Kobe was the best player in the league, it was extremely short.

It's also crazy to put Kobe above Wilt; I would cite the many, many, MANY statistics that show why Wilt was arguably the most dominant basketball player of all time, but I presume you are already aware of them.  That is, unless you're simply counting rings, in which case Bill Russell is the best player of all time by far and all of this kind of discussion is a waste of time.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2022, 10:13:49 pm by Spider-Dan » Logged

stinkfish
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« Reply #26 on: April 12, 2022, 10:34:04 pm »

Ah, I forgot that wilt played for the lakers. I’m not counting rings. Rings do not a great player make. I wouldn’t say that Shaq was a better baller than Kobe. He was obviously the most physically dominant player in the league for years, which doesn’t make him a “better” player. Shaq was a big body. Did great things. But you’d rather have Shaq taking the final shot to win than Kobe? I’m not arguing rings, or numbers or stats. Just look at talent and skill. If you do want to talk about rings and Shaq and Kobe. Shaq won one without Kobe and Kobe won two without Shaq. Championships are great and all, but as Dolphins fans we hear it all the time about Marino not winning one. One must look at an athlete’s total body of work. Resume if you will.
Oh and as far as Bill Russel goes, my father has a great story about going to the Roxbury neighborhood of Boston  to pick up a very drunk friend from Bill Russel’s bar. Russel kicked her out himself and waited outside with her until my dad arrived. She drunkenly slurred something to him about being a second rate hockey player, and bill russel himself told my father that she can never come back into his place.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2022, 10:51:00 pm by stinkfish » Logged

Bibamus, moriendum est

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Four legs good, Two legs better
Spider-Dan
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« Reply #27 on: April 12, 2022, 10:54:49 pm »

But you’d rather have Shaq taking the final shot to win than Kobe?
I would rather have Shaq on my team than Kobe, because having Shaq on your team makes it less likely that you will need to make the last shot to secure a victory.

Also: Kobe is easy to replace.  Midrange shooters are a dime a dozen; replace Kobe with KD, with Bird, with DWade.  Replace him with Booker, with Kyrie, with Harden.  Who cares.
A big man like Shaq is much more valuable.

Quote
If you do want to talk about rings and Shaq and Kobe. Shaq won one without Kobe and Kobe won two without Shaq.
Shaq won three (arguably four) as the best player on his team.
Kobe won two as the best player on his team.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2022, 11:05:43 pm by Spider-Dan » Logged

stinkfish
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« Reply #28 on: April 12, 2022, 11:16:27 pm »

I don’t know man. Having a big man to clog up the middle is huge. You can’t win without someone like that. And I know what you mean about midrange shooters basically falling out of the sky for any team that needs one. But Kobe was just a special talent. Can you  really argue that he wasn’t special? Instrumental even to the Lakers’ success? He wasn’t just a throw away guy that can light it up for a team for a season or two. I liked watching Shaq dominate, but when the Lakers brought in two other big men named Gasol and Odom… those guys were big AND versatile. Clog up the middle AND shoot from the outside AND hit free throws.
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Bibamus, moriendum est

Sport is the other opiate of the masses

Four legs good, Two legs better
masterfins
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« Reply #29 on: April 20, 2022, 04:52:48 pm »

Sorry, you're all wrong.  Larry Bird was, and still is, THEE best ever. End of discussion.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2022, 04:54:45 pm by masterfins » Logged
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