The new variant and masks

[Dave Gray]

Can anybody explain what Fauci means by the global level vs the individual level?

I don't even know what you're talking about, but I think this is what is being said.


Don't look at one mask on one person's face an try to determine that person's benefit.   (individual)
Look at all masks on everyone's face and see that it helpful to the community.    (global)


A virus is about whether or not you are doing what you can do to avoid it.  But also....by masking worldwide, there will be fewer instances of the virus for you to bump into.

And the data, on a grand scale, is that masking lowers transmission rates, in general, which means there's less COVID being passed around to catch.



Some dude who has COVID at the grocery store might sneeze.  That sneeze is spit particles in the air.  Someone else walks through that cloud.   They get COVID.  Then that person comes to your house to fix your A/C and you got COVID.  Maybe that person who gave you COVID was even wearing a mask.

But if the first guy at the grocery was wearing a mask, maybe his sneeze doesn't stay in the air as long.  Maybe someone sees him with a mask on and avoids him.   But maybe COVID doesn't spread to the 2nd guy, which means you don't get COVID because the guy fixing your A/C doesn't have it.

The point in that story is that even though your behavior didn't change on an individual level, the community behavior changed and you didn't get COVID as a result.

[dolphins4life]

I don't even know what you're talking about, but I think this is what is being said.


Don't look at one mask on one person's face an try to determine that person's benefit.   (individual)
Look at all masks on everyone's face and see that it helpful to the community.    (global)


A virus is about whether or not you are doing what you can do to avoid it.  But also....by masking worldwide, there will be fewer instances of the virus for you to bump into.

And the data, on a grand scale, is that masking lowers transmission rates, in general, which means there's less COVID being passed around to catch.



Some dude who has COVID at the grocery store might sneeze.  That sneeze is spit particles in the air.  Someone else walks through that cloud.   They get COVID.  Then that person comes to your house to fix your A/C and you got COVID.  Maybe that person who gave you COVID was even wearing a mask.

But if the first guy at the grocery was wearing a mask, maybe his sneeze doesn't stay in the air as long.  Maybe someone sees him with a mask on and avoids him.   But maybe COVID doesn't spread to the 2nd guy, which means you don't get COVID because the guy fixing your A/C doesn't have it.

The point in that story is that even though your behavior didn't change on an individual level, the community behavior changed and you didn't get COVID as a result.

That's the opposite of what Fauci said in the video.  He said that masks were NOT effective on a global level, but work on an individual level.  I don't get what that means

Watch the video and tell me if YOU understand it.

[Dave Gray]

I also don't understand what that means.

I'll have to look into it further.

[Spider-Dan]

I spent 4 days in the hospital because they said I had double pneumonia. I never had any breathing issues per se.

Pneumonia is a lung disease.  You were in the hospital with "double pneumonia" and you "never had any breathing issues"?
Answer me this: did you test positive for COVID when you were in the hospital with double pneumonia but "no breathing issues"?

Again, y'all are willing to dismiss literal suffocation to death while on a respirator as "with COVID, not from COVID" so I'm not sure what could possibly change your mind.

I just remembered this which will probably really freak you out Spider.

The day I first had COVID symptoms, I was indoors all day long with 5 coworkers.  My dad came to my house and gave me a hug while I had a 101+ fever.  Everyone involved was wearing cloth masks, and no one else tested positive.

I'm sure you will take a very different conclusion from this event than I did.

[Dave Gray]

I watched the video.

Fauci DOES NOT say this: "He said that masks were NOT effective on a global level".  So I don't know where you're getting that from.

He very clearly says that there are many studies that show masks work.

He is claiming that the data available is stronger at proving it on an individual wearer than on a population.  I don't know why that is.  I can speculate that it's easier to control for variables in the test.

Maybe it's hard to tell what amount of people are wearing masks in a population, where as it's easy to tell in studies of small amounts of people.


He's also not drawing conclusions in that statement.  He's just explaining that the data draws a clearer line in individual cases that in full populations.  But he also concedes that the amount of benefit is different in different studies.

[dolphins4life]

Pneumonia is a lung disease.  You were in the hospital with "double pneumonia" and you "never had any breathing issues"?
Answer me this: did you test positive for COVID when you were in the hospital with double pneumonia but "no breathing issues"?

Again, y'all are willing to dismiss literal suffocation to death while on a respirator as "with COVID, not from COVID" so I'm not sure what could possibly change your mind.
The day I first had COVID symptoms, I was indoors all day long with 5 coworkers.  My dad came to my house and gave me a hug while I had a 101+ fever.  Everyone involved was wearing cloth masks, and no one else tested positive.

I'm sure you will take a very different conclusion from this event than I did.

Wait....

If he was in the hospital with double pneumonia, and tested positive for Covid while there, that is CLEARLY being hospitalized WITH Covid and not FROM Covid, right?

That's what makes things so tricky to understand. 

[Dave Gray]

You also gotta understand Fauci.  He isn't making the science.

He's just explaining the data that other people are testing and helped recommend policy around those conclusions.  He's like the "manager".  It's not like he has every answer on every COVID thing past and future -- he's just interpreting the data that other studies show.  He's the PR guy for the White House trying to help the population understand the data that they have.

And it's his old job and he's retired.  It's weird that he's the face of COVID for people to hate on.  He's the guy responsible for reporting the data and making recommendations based off of it.  But science is a worldwide community with a variety of tests looking at different things with different variables and controls and even conclusions.

If we've learned anything from this, it's probably that we shouldn't have one person come up and tell the story, because he will be called a cheat and a schill and get vilified.

[Spider-Dan]

Wait....

If he was in the hospital with double pneumonia, and tested positive for Covid while there, that is CLEARLY being hospitalized WITH Covid and not FROM Covid, right?

Pneumonia - the lungs filling with fluid - is one of the many documented symptoms of COVID.

CF was obviously admitted to the hospital for some reason; if he had "double pneumonia," then it's hard to believe that he was breathing normally.  The idea that you can go to the hospital with breathing problems, test positive for COVID, and believe that your lung ailment is Just A Coincidence is exactly why COVID denialism makes this kind of discussion so unproductive.

[dolphins4life]

Pneumonia - the lungs filling with fluid - is one of the many documented symptoms of COVID.

CF was obviously admitted to the hospital for some reason; if he had "double pneumonia," then it's hard to believe that he was breathing normally.  The idea that you can go to the hospital with breathing problems, test positive for COVID, and believe that your lung ailment is Just A Coincidence is exactly why COVID denialism makes this kind of discussion so unproductive.

I thought pneumonia was a separate disease altogether.  Are you saying Covid CAUSES pneumonia?  That would make more sense

[Spider-Dan]

If your lungs fill with fluid as the result of an infection, you have pneumonia.
That infection can be COVID-19, or something else.

[Fau Teixeira]

thats why theres viral pneumonia and bacterial pneumonia.. the viral is the cause, pneumonia is the symptom

[CF DolFan]

Pneumonia - the lungs filling with fluid - is one of the many documented symptoms of COVID.

CF was obviously admitted to the hospital for some reason; if he had "double pneumonia," then it's hard to believe that he was breathing normally.  The idea that you can go to the hospital with breathing problems, test positive for COVID, and believe that your lung ailment is Just A Coincidence is exactly why COVID denialism makes this kind of discussion so unproductive.

I swear I didn't and my O2 level wasn't bad. They did a CT scan with contrast in the hospital to determine that. They didn't say but I guess they heard something in the stethoscope to suspect something but at any rate all I was looking for was an IV and some nausea medicine. Once I had that I felt much better. It was then they ran more tests. Oddly enough they admitted my wife when her O2 level dropped but she didn't have pneumonia. They never even scanned her.

BTW not sure why the question but yes I had tested positive for Covid and the pneumonia was a result of having Covid.

I will say outside of the lung doctor most of the nurses and other doctors had a pretty laid back attitude to the whole thing. The lung doctor would always keep his distance and make sure I had a mask on while others would tell me to remove my mask and make myself comfortable.  

[masterfins]

IMO regularly washing your hands, or using hand sanitizer, does more to prevent you from getting or spreading covid (and many other things).

[Fau Teixeira]

IMO regularly washing your hands, or using hand sanitizer, does more to prevent you from getting or spreading covid (and many other things).

Sure, and no-one's saying it doesn't help, but it doesn't invalidate every other measure.

This is why it's hard to determine mask vs no mask because you can't control for that single factor. You have to look at overall trends, and discount any anecdotal accounts (my cousin never wore a mask and never got covid, my aunt's step-son's friend wore one all the time and got covid 7 times).

[Dave Gray]

It's also hard to gauge secondary effects. 

I think that social distancing is much more naturally occurring when everyone is wearing a mask.  When I see people in a mask in a grocery store, I don't go near them, perhaps even subconsciously.  (This is only my individual experience).  Also, you're not touching your face as much when you wear a mask.  It might have unintended effects that aren't easily measurable in a lab.