Tua receipts

[Pappy13]

In regard to trading for Deshaun Watson:

I still agree with this one. I'd still take Herbert over Watson.

And just for the record, I'm fine with this thread but I appreciate your comments Spider.

[Dave Gray]

^ Wasn't the comment about trading Tua for Watson.  ....not in relation to Herbert.

[Pappy13]

^ Wasn't the comment about trading Tua for Watson.  ....not in relation to Herbert.

The comment that I made was that we wouldn't be in this situation (meaning wondering if that we should go after Watson) if we had chosen Herbert instead of Tua. I still agree with that comment. Herbert is pretty much the same player today that he was when he came into the league. Tua has gotten objectively better, but at the time we were looking at Watson we weren't sure if Tua was the future or not. That's changed now, but at the time it was a fair question. At no point in Herbert's NFL career would we have traded Herbert for Watson. Not necessarily because he's so much better but because he's younger and doesn't come with the baggage associated with Watson. Don't forget that Watson was still going to be suspended by the league and no one knew for how many games, so if we traded for him, he wouldn't have been able to play for quite some time anyway. No way you're giving up on Herbert to bring in a guy that can't even play. Cleveland could afford to do that because they had already decided to give up on their QB at the time.

[Brian Fein]

You have to take into consideration the fact that the head coach of the Miami Dolphins didn't want Tua as his QB and was directly and purposely undermining his development.  He drafted a first round QB and then started Ryan Fitzpatrick over him.  That absolutely stunted Tua's growth and confidence.  Brian Flores was more toxic than good for the future of this team.  He got bad players to give their all, but he did nothing to help the future.  He drove Minkah Fitzpatrick out of town (and there was one other player i can't remember), and then he tried to destroy our brand new QB and cast him off for a sex offender. 

Let's not forget that.

[Pappy13]

You have to take into consideration the fact that the head coach of the Miami Dolphins didn't want Tua as his QB and was directly and purposely undermining his development.

I think this is your opinion. There's no evidence that he didn't want Tua nor that he was trying to undermine him as the QB. There's plenty of evidence that he didn't think Tua was the QB that he thought he was when he was drafted, but he's certainly not the only one that believed that at the time. He certainly wasn't doing Tua any favors by playing him in an offense that wasn't suited to Tua's strengths, I'll give you that, but not really many people were convinced that's all that Tua needed. Mike McDaniel was and I give him a ton of credit for that. I'll also give him a ton of credit in realizing that what Tua needed was another WR with speed to throw to and traded for Hill. If you remember there was still a LOT of speculation that Hill wouldn't be that effective in Miami because Tua couldn't throw long to Hill. How quickly we have all forgotten that talk. I'm absolutely of the opinion that McDaniel saved Tua's career, I'm not so certain that Flores was trying to undermine it though. He just didn't have the same vision that McDaniel had and neither did a bunch of other folks.

Just as Brady needed Belichick (at least early in his career), I think Tua needed McDaniel. There's no question about that in my mind, but it's more than just a coach who believes in you, it's a coach that knows how to use you.

[Dave Gray]

(meaning wondering if that we should go after Watson)

I understand your point.

I will counter with saying that going after Watson was never something I (or anyone I consider a serious person with a football intellect I respect) was considering.

There's no evidence that he didn't want Tua nor that he was trying to undermine him as the QB.

There is certainly circumstantial evidence, but I think that are leaks and stuff, right?  I mean, this isn't a trial, so there isn't an opportunity for hard evidence.  Nobody is gonna release Flores' personal emails or texts or go under oath about their conversations, but isn't it pretty well known within the sportswriter world???

[Pappy13]

I understand your point.

I will counter with saying that going after Watson was never something I (or anyone I consider a serious person with a football intellect I respect) was considering.

Respectfully Dave, that's your opinion. There was plenty of people in the football world that thought it might be the right thing to do. Not necessarily that it WAS the right thing to do, but possibly. Honestly if Watson didn't have the baggage, I don't think there's any question it would have been the right thing to do at the time. Hindsight as they say is 20/20.

There is certainly circumstantial evidence, but I think that are leaks and stuff, right?  I mean, this isn't a trial, so there isn't an opportunity for hard evidence.  Nobody is gonna release Flores' personal emails or texts or go under oath about their conversations, but isn't it pretty well known within the sportswriter world???

Speculation? You bet. Evidence? No.

[Brian Fein]

I think this is your opinion. There's no evidence that he didn't want Tua nor that he was trying to undermine him as the QB.

You can call it what you will, but I'm not the only one that realizes that Flores was directly undermining Tua.

https://www.thephinsider.com/2022/1/17/22886730/did-brian-flores-sabotage-tua-tagovailoas-development-as-quarterback-for-the-miami-dolphins

^^ interesting read now 2 seasons later.  ^^

https://www.si.com/nfl/dolphins/news/former-miami-dolphins-head-coach-brian-flores-still-making-news

I remember there was an interview with Ryan Fitzpatrick where he talked openly about how Flores was sabotaging Tua directly to influence a trade for Watson.  As if he had to prove to Chris Grier that Tua was trash.  What kind of coach tells his starting 1st round pick that he should have picked someone else:

https://twitter.com/NFL_DovKleiman/status/1481713860604317702

Flores was bad for the Dolphins, good riddance.

[Dave Gray]

Respectfully Dave, that's your opinion.

No kidding -- this is a message board where we're sharing our opinions.  It isn't a mathematical proof.

I never entertained that idea as serious.


As for Flores, would you consider hearsay evidence?  I'm not really sure what evidence you want, short of Flores admitting it or producing documents.  What you constitute evidence in this case.  (Mind you, I am not presenting any evidence; I'm simply following the general sports narrative down here.)

[Pappy13]

No kidding -- this is a message board where we're sharing our opinions.  It isn't a mathematical proof.

I never entertained that idea as serious.

What I'm saying is that you never entertained those thoughts. For you to think that everyone of average football intelligence thought the same way is thinking pretty highly of your own opinion I would say.

Below is a direct quote from Michael Lombardi an NFL GM in early 2022.

"They tell the GMs what they want to hear. But if you're really honest, are you going to sit there and say, 'I can build a team around Tua'? Because that's what Ross wants to hear."

Look I don't want to get into this with you all again. I have no problem with you posting my thoughts from 2 years ago, have your fun. I'll own up to every one of them, but lets not try to revise history now. Some of you have believed in Tua from the beginning, others had to be convinced and there's a LOT of those folks. Is that really so hard to understand? Can't you just be content with the fact that you saw it from the beginning when others didn't?

And yes I do agree for anyone to not see it now is just sour grapes.

[Dave Gray]

Look I don't want to get into this with you all again. I have no problem with you posting my thoughts from 2 years ago, have your fun. I'll own up to every one of them, but lets not try to revise history now. Some of you have believed in Tua from the beginning, others had to be convinced and there's a LOT of those folks. Is that really so hard to understand? Can't you just be content with the fact that you saw it from the beginning when others didn't?

I think I'm being misunderstood.  I didn't see it from the beginning.  I can't take credit for that.  My issue is more recognizing what he was doing it when he was doing it and downplaying that success to luck, having good receivers, that it was a flash in the pan, etc.

But my take about Watson was about Watson, not about Tua.

When you draft a QB high, that's a marriage.  You can't trade that QB and picks 2 years in for another problematic player with a bunch of allegations that's been out of football.  That's a foolish take, IMO.  And that's an opinion I'm allowed to have.  I didn't take that opinion seriously then and I don't take it seriously now.

It's nothing about dragging you through the mud.

[Pappy13]

But my take about Watson was about Watson, not about Tua.

Then what's funny about my quote from 2 years ago that we wouldn't be having this conversation if we had drafted Herbert instead of Tua? If you wouldn't have traded Tua for Watson you wouldn't have traded Herbert for Watson either. And why would you put it in the "Tua Receipts" thread if it's not about Tua?

[Dave Gray]

And how is this somehow in the "Tua Receipts" thread if it's not about Tua?

I just mean that my decision not to entertaining Tua + picks trades for Watson wasn't about how much I believed in Tua at the time.  I would have felt the same way had we drafted Tua, Herbert, RGIII, Tannehill or whoever else.

Once an organization puts their eggs in the franchise QB basket, you owe it to yourself to let it play out before you use up more resources on a different failed QB like Watson.

But I take your point and I'll move on.  (I don't even like comparing Herbert to Tua, by the way.  I've always said that we didn't draft Herbert so who cares how good he is.)

[Spider-Dan]

Speaking strictly to the relationship between Flores and Tua, it is difficult to describe it as anything but sabotage.

We ALL questioned the choice to promote Tua to starter just as Fitzpatrick seemed to be hitting a groove (winning 3 of 4 games), but the general consensus was that if you put Tua in to take his lumps, you've got to keep him in.  Flores then proceeded to yank Tua out in the fourth quarter of multiple one-score games, something I've never seen any other head coach do with their first-round QB.  That alone is sabotage, and was called so at the time.

Tua had the worst o-line in team history, some of the worst receivers in team history, and still posted a better win percentage than Burrow or Herbert with them.  Flores clearly did not want him and was doing whatever he could to engineer his replacement.

[Pappy13]

Speaking strictly to the relationship between Flores and Tua, it is difficult to describe it as anything but sabotage.

We ALL questioned the choice to promote Tua to starter just as Fitzpatrick seemed to be hitting a groove (winning 3 of 4 games), but the general consensus was that if you put Tua in to take his lumps, you've got to keep him in.  Flores then proceeded to yank Tua out in the fourth quarter of multiple one-score games, something I've never seen any other head coach do with their first-round QB.  That alone is sabotage, and was called so at the time.

There's no question that Flores was bad for Tua and bad for the Dolphins as a head coach. The question is was Flores trying to sabotage Tua or was he just a bad head coach? In my opinion it's pretty clear it's the latter. He's certainly no Mike McDaniel that's for sure.

If Flores really was trying to sabotage Tua, then why did he choose to draft Waddle with the #6 pick? It sounds counterintuitive to go get a WR that Tua had plenty of success with in college, doesn't it? Or are you suggesting that Flores had no say in the draft whatsoever and that was all just Grier? I think we are giving a lot of credit to the GM for both the Tua and Waddle picks when the head coach wanted neither of these players. That's just my opinion, I could be wrong.