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Author Topic: Collinsworth on Josh Allen  (Read 3867 times)
Pappy13
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« Reply #45 on: November 29, 2023, 08:23:01 pm »

What you can put on Josh Allen is that his offense - featuring an "MVP caliber" QB and multiple Pro Bowl weapons - can't ever seem to score a TD in overtime... unlike his opponents.
He only ever gets 1 chance if that in OT. Maybe if the D got a stop just once? He's had 5 drives in 6 OT games and the results have been a FG, INT and 3 punts. Not great, but certainly not the ONLY reason for all 6 OT losses. I'd be more critical of him if he had the same lack of success in the entire 4th quarter of games, but that's not been the case at all. I think people are cherry picking his OT performance as indicative of his overall play in crunch time.
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Spider-Dan
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« Reply #46 on: November 29, 2023, 08:25:08 pm »

So he's scored exactly once - a field goal - in 5 OT drives and you're scrambling for reasons why he's never won an overtime game?

It would be one thing if the defense were giving up a TD on the first possession every time and he's not even touching the ball.  But that has happened exactly once.  And until Sunday, Allen had never scored at all in 4 tries!  Not even a field goal!

For someone that's supposed to be an elite franchise QB, that's terrible, no matter how you slice it.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2023, 08:27:17 pm by Spider-Dan » Logged

Pappy13
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« Reply #47 on: November 29, 2023, 11:09:20 pm »

So he's scored exactly once - a field goal - in 5 OT drives and you're scrambling for reasons why he's never won an overtime game?

It would be one thing if the defense were giving up a TD on the first possession every time and he's not even touching the ball.  But that has happened exactly once.  And until Sunday, Allen had never scored at all in 4 tries!  Not even a field goal!

For someone that's supposed to be an elite franchise QB, that's terrible, no matter how you slice it.
No, it's not. You're only looking at the 5 overtime drives. 1 out of 5 is not a good ratio, but it's not enough data to tell you everything. Just 1 more FG in any of those games and that would double his success rate. 5 drives is not enough drives to determine ANYTHING. It's just not. If you looked at EVERY drive in let's say the last 5 minutes of 1 score games for his career that would probably give you a MUCH better idea of how he does with the game on the line and I'm willing to bet it's a LOT better than 20%. Just look at this game. Allen also drove his team for the go ahead TD with less than 2 minutes to play in regulation. Just looking at this game that improves his drive success rate from 1 for 1 to 2 for 2 with a TD and a FG with the game on the line. That's fantastic!!!! This game doesn't show how he fails with the game on the line it actually shows just the opposite, that he's pretty darn good with the game on the line. Too bad for him that his defense also gave up 10 points with the game on the line pretty much just like they have done in all 6 OT games that Allen has played in.

Here's an interesting fact about Josh Allen. In all 6 OT games, the Bills offense scored on their last possession in regulation often with less than 30 seconds to go to either take the lead or tie the game sending it into overtime. Without some late game heroics from Allen with the game on the line, the Bills lose all of those OT games in regulation. Looks like Collinsworth was right about Allen afterall and all 6 of the OT losses support that.

Texans/Bills 1/4/20 - Bills kicked a 47 yard FG with 5 seconds left on the clock to tie the game when Allen drove the offense 41 yards on 11 plays in 1:11.
Bucs/Bills 12/12/21- Bills kicked a 24 yard FG with 22 seconds left on the clock to tie the game when Allen drove the offense 70 yards on 14 plays in 2:43.
Chiefs/Bills 1/23/22 - Bills scored a TD with 13 seconds left on the clock to take the lead when Allen drove the offense 75 yards on 6 plays in 49 seconds with Allen hitting Gabe Davis for a go ahead 19 yard pass.
Vikings/Bills 11/13/22 - Bills kicked a 29 yard FG with 2 seconds left on the clock to tie the game when Allen drove the offense 69 yards on 5 plays in 39 seconds.
Jets/Bills 9/11/23 - Bills kicked a 50 yard FG with 2 seconds left on the clock to tie the game when Allen drove the offense 43 yards on 9 plays in 1:46.
Eagles/Bills 11/26/23 - Bills scored a TD with 1:52 left on the clock to take the lead when Allen drove the offense 74 yards on 10 plays in 5:14 with Allen hitting Gabe Davis with a go ahead 7 yard pass.

When you cherry pick the numbers like you are doing here you come up with REALLY bad conclusions most of the time. The way to prevent this type of thing is to look at the BIG picture and do analysis of ALL the relevant data you can find, not cherry pick a really small percentage of the data that you THINK might be the most relevant and base your decision around that. You're essentially ONLY looking at the data that makes him look bad and completely ignoring anything else that doesn't seem to fit with your pre-determined conclusion. Rather than do this you HAVE to strive to PREVENT this type of thinking the best you can. You're not doing that here.

https://www.espn.com/video/clip/_/id/39004814
« Last Edit: November 30, 2023, 05:11:25 am by Pappy13 » Logged

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Spider-Dan
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« Reply #48 on: November 30, 2023, 02:20:30 pm »

No, it's not. You're only looking at the 5 overtime drives.
I'm only looking at the 5 OT drives because I'm only commenting on his performance in OT.  If you want to say Allen has been great in the 4th quarter to force OT (but then bad in OT), I have no problem with that statement.
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Pappy13
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« Reply #49 on: November 30, 2023, 05:17:16 pm »

I'm only looking at the 5 OT drives because I'm only commenting on his performance in OT.  If you want to say Allen has been great in the 4th quarter to force OT (but then bad in OT), I have no problem with that statement.
Sure as long as you acknowledge that's different from saying that Josh Allen is bad with the game on the line.
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« Reply #50 on: December 01, 2023, 11:14:25 am »

Sure as long as you acknowledge that's different from saying that Josh Allen is bad with the game on the line.

I'm not saying that.  I just think that it's a popular sentiment and perception, whether true or not.  And it's crazy for an announcer, in the face of that, to say that he's best with the game on the line, when that's one of the biggest knocks against his game is how un-clutch he is.  This thread isn't a criticism of Josh Allen.  It's a criticism of Collinsworth.
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Pappy13
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« Reply #51 on: December 02, 2023, 08:00:38 pm »

I'm not saying that.  I just think that it's a popular sentiment and perception, whether true or not.  And it's crazy for an announcer, in the face of that, to say that he's best with the game on the line, when that's one of the biggest knocks against his game is how un-clutch he is.  This thread isn't a criticism of Josh Allen.  It's a criticism of Collinsworth.
So Collinsworth should go along with the common perception regardless of whether or not he personally believes it? Is that what you are saying?
« Last Edit: December 02, 2023, 08:02:32 pm by Pappy13 » Logged

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« Reply #52 on: December 03, 2023, 11:53:28 am »

So Collinsworth should go along with the common perception regardless of whether or not he personally believes it? Is that what you are saying?

No, but I think that there's a spectrum.

The common perception is that Josh Allen is bad in OT and a choker.  The admittedly small sample size seems to support that.  It's totally fine to say that's not fair and that the criticisms of his are not founded and that's it's not the weakness in his game that it is made out to be.

That's a far stretch from calling it a STRENGTH.

In short: saying that Josh Allen is his best with the game on the line is a clown take.  Thus, Collinsworth is a clown.
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Pappy13
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« Reply #53 on: December 03, 2023, 05:23:50 pm »

No, but I think that there's a spectrum.

The common perception is that Josh Allen is bad in OT and a choker.  The admittedly small sample size seems to support that.  It's totally fine to say that's not fair and that the criticisms of his are not founded and that's it's not the weakness in his game that it is made out to be.

That's a far stretch from calling it a STRENGTH.

In short: saying that Josh Allen is his best with the game on the line is a clown take.  Thus, Collinsworth is a clown.
Collinsworth was not talking about OT specifically. He was talking about being good with the game on the line. You brought up Josh Allens record in OT in an attempt to discredit what Collinsworth was saying, but it's unfair to limit Allen's "game on the line" rhetoric to overtime only when there is so much additional gameplay to consider. That's my point. It's very fair for Collinsworth to talk about Josh Allens strength with the "game on the line" when considering his entire body of work and not just overtime. It's not a stretch at all. It's only a stretch for you and others because you are limiting your evaluation to OT only which is a very small subset of "game on the line".
« Last Edit: December 03, 2023, 05:36:21 pm by Pappy13 » Logged

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« Reply #54 on: December 04, 2023, 09:45:42 am »

Don't you guys get it? It is unfair to limit Allen's "game on the line" rhetoric to only when the game is on the line!
To get a full picture of Josh Allen's "game on the line" performance, a full analysis of quarters 1 THRU 4 should be reviewed. Also because he only has 6 OT games, it is too small a sample, so it should be dismissed.
With that said, his game on the line record is 58-25, one of the most elite "game on the line" performers in the history of the league.

Here are my personal favorites for elites skills displayed, when the game is on the line!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=enoUCDJyH3A
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P7Dl-5QPu3k
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Dave Gray
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« Reply #55 on: January 22, 2024, 10:55:44 am »

Josh Allen missed some nice TD throws to open receivers with the game on the line.  ...also fumbled.  I'm really glad he's so good with the game on the line.

I think it's when there's a time crunch and he cannot just scramble his way out of things and is made to evaluate his passing options, he can't find them.  He got bailed out of the narrative because of the missed FG (Stephon Diggs did, as well...he isn't a viable #1 receiver) but the Chiefs were all set to come kick a FG to win that game anyway.  Bills needed a TD to win and had open guys downfield and Allen put the ball in the dirt.  Again.  Because that's what he does.
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Pappy13
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« Reply #56 on: January 24, 2024, 11:25:14 am »

Right. Lets blame Josh Allen because his kicker missed a chip shot FG to tie the game. By the way the TD pass was underthrown because he was getting hit while throwing the pass, a fact that I guess you missed. Yep, it's Josh Allens fault the Bills lost....again. Geez Dave it's almost as if you just don't like Josh Allen or something...wait.
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« Reply #57 on: January 24, 2024, 12:19:49 pm »

I'm not blaming Josh Allen -- I'm just pushing back at the absurd statement that he's at his best with the game on the line.
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Pappy13
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« Reply #58 on: January 24, 2024, 07:37:09 pm »

I'm not blaming Josh Allen -- I'm just pushing back at the absurd statement that he's at his best with the game on the line.
I'm just pushing back on the statement that's an absurd statement.
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